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Old 03-02-2016, 04:06 PM   #361
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By the way, the bad guys are not always as smart as you think.

I served on the jury of a case, where a guy made a phone call from jail to order another guy to hurt a witness against him. I understand that before a call is made from jail, a message comes on to warn of the conversation being recorded. Still, he gave the order. Not too smart! And yes, that recording was among the evidence presented.

People say that a determined and smart terrorist can get around anything. That may be true, but phones are used everyday by crooks of all kinds, not all being that smart.

PS. The guy being tried was not illiterate, and in fact a healthcare worker. He slipped up.
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:19 PM   #362
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Very little will stop a terrorist from dying. What can be done is to reduce the number of innocents he takes with him.

When people object to the government doing anything, it's one of these arguments: 1) they will abuse it and encroach the privacy of the public, 2) the tool will leak into the hand of bad guys, and 3) it does not work because the bad guys will work around it.

The police has battering rams and weapons, but they do not abuse it as a daily occurrence to break down people's doors or hurt them. There's still due process in place, and it mostly works.

About leaking "stuff" into the hand of bad guys, secrets about ICBM launch control conceivably can get into bad hands. I am sure that's worth a lot of money to some bad guys, even countries. What has been done to keep these secrets safe all these years?

And about crime prevention, it is true that one can never prevent all crimes (that's why we still have crimes!). It does not mean that we give up. And often, examination of evidence after-the-fact or forensic investigation can give us clues to prevent new crimes, or pursue some leads.

Sorry, I should have been clearer.... you mentioned the law that said you could not put boobie traps in your house to protect first responders.... I just said that a terrorist would just ignore that law... some laws are there to prosecute people who want to live, and that is good.... but if you are going out in a blaze of glory there are no laws that make a difference....
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Old 03-03-2016, 03:12 AM   #363
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Question is, when a terrorist act was committed, and possible evidence exists, do you want law enforcement to obtain that evidence? The answer is more about future terrorism acts, and what can be done to intercept the perpetrators.
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Old 03-03-2016, 08:00 AM   #364
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Sorry, I should have been clearer.... you mentioned the law that said you could not put boobie traps in your house to protect first responders.... I just said that a terrorist would just ignore that law... some laws are there to prosecute people who want to live, and that is good.... but if you are going out in a blaze of glory there are no laws that make a difference....
I am the one who should be clearer. One would not expect a criminal, let alone a terrorist, to obey any law. When I mentioned the anti-booby-trap law, it was an example showing that one cannot always do what one wants with his property.
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Old 03-03-2016, 08:23 AM   #365
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The underlying assumption in this is that law enforcement or intelligence analysis is less effective because it does not have access to this encrypted electronic content, and access would improve mission effectiveness. This is unproven.

Here's an interview with Michael Hayden, former Director of the NSA, who sides with Apple on the idea of a back door mandate Michael Hayden: America Is Safer With End-To-End Encryption | On Point with Tom Ashbrook
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Old 03-03-2016, 08:41 AM   #366
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The underlying assumption in this is that law enforcement or intelligence analysis is less effective because it does not have access to these encrypted electronic content, and access would improve mission effectiveness. This is unproven.
...
Catch-22? It's encrypted, we can't un-encrypt it, so we can't prove that it would provide useful data, because we can't un-encrypt it.

Or is that a 'tautological' statement? Both? And/or personal bias showing?

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Old 03-22-2016, 07:22 AM   #367
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"Hello, Apple. FBI here. Never mind..................."

Allegedly FBI is saying the may have a way to break the phone without help from Apple. Apple said that if true, it is hoping the FBI will share the methodology. Like that is going to happen.
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Old 03-22-2016, 07:42 AM   #368
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"Hello, Apple. FBI here. Never mind..................."

Allegedly FBI is saying the may have a way to break the phone without help from Apple. Apple said that if true, it is hoping the FBI will share the methodology. Like that is going to happen.
They can buy it from the Chinese government, just like the FBI did.
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Old 03-22-2016, 07:58 AM   #369
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Maybe, thought it might be that wacky John McAfee guy. He was on the tube talking about this a week ago or so.
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Old 03-22-2016, 10:24 AM   #370
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Industry, press and public opinion is trending against the FBI. My guess is that those who decide in the FBI worry that a bad precedent would hamstring their future efforts. Cloning the phone and running through the stock setting of 10,000 possible numbers would have to be a lot cheaper to hack than a Supreme Court ruling.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:13 AM   #371
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Lillies may not toil and spin, but those NSA hard drives in Utah do for a reason.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:18 AM   #372
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Well if there's a big terrorist attack on US soil, it'll be hard for Apple to hold their position, even though the FBI can't prevent attacks by tapping into iPhones.

The Paris attacks were done by burner phones, using SMS that the authorities were able to read after the fact.

Even if all digital communications were in the clear, it would be even harder than picking a needle from a haystack. More like picking a needle from several thousand barns full of haystacks.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:29 AM   #373
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If this goes ahead it will be a marketing coup for Apple. "Well, as you may have heard, government authorities can now break into the locks on every phone we have previously sold. We've developed a new, better security system that is immune to this type of unlocking. The new Apple TDCiP* is what you'll want to buy now, on sale at an iStore near you. Get it before the black helicopters get you. Cash and Bitcoin accepted."

*Terrorist, Dissident, and Criminal iPhone
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:48 AM   #374
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Maybe, thought it might be that wacky John McAfee guy. He was on the tube talking about this a week ago or so.
Yep. He was saying they could dump the memory and brute force it.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:59 AM   #375
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Wow, it's a terrorist phone huh?
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Old 03-22-2016, 03:00 PM   #376
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Maybe, thought it might be that wacky John McAfee guy. He was on the tube talking about this a week ago or so.
John McAfee says it's not him but that he brokered a deal. Hmmmm
John McAfee speaks out on FBI-Apple hack's 'third party'
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Old 03-22-2016, 03:08 PM   #377
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"Hello, Apple. FBI here. Never mind..................."

Allegedly FBI is saying the may have a way to break the phone without help from Apple. Apple said that if true, it is hoping the FBI will share the methodology. Like that is going to happen.
But wasn't this an older iPhone, that might be a little easier to load a new OS (GovtOS) onto? And if, (big if), it is the phone software that slows down response to wrong guesses, and the FBI figured out how to load a new OS onto the phone, then it seems like they could open the phone up enough to allow fast, electronic (not button-push) brute force attacks.

Allowing a brute force attack to happen w/o a slow down, and allowing it electronically is different from 'cracking' the phone security itself. It just allows you to keep guessing the password until you stumble upon a good one.

And maybe the newer phones include the slow down mechanism in the 'secure enclave' itself, meaning the OS has no control over it? That would be a very tough nut to get through.

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Old 03-22-2016, 06:17 PM   #378
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Industry, press and public opinion is trending against the FBI. My guess is that those who decide in the FBI worry that a bad precedent would hamstring their future efforts. Cloning the phone and running through the stock setting of 10,000 possible numbers would have to be a lot cheaper to hack than a Supreme Court ruling.
I think the FBI wants to avoid taking Apple to court at all costs, because if it got to the Supreme Court and they lost, it would be much worse for them than almost anything I can imagine.
If Apple refuses to budge the FBI won't take it to court. I am betting Tim Cook realizes he has the FBI by the short hairs on this one.
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Old 03-22-2016, 06:31 PM   #379
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They'll be using a DFU mode jailbreak hack. This works on iPhone 5 and earlier. It will trash the secure enclave on iPhone 6 and later, rendering the phone contents unusable. Not a problem for a phone thief, but not what the FBI would want. The approach will have to be vetted by outside experts and approved by the court before any evidence obtained can be entered.


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Old 03-22-2016, 06:45 PM   #380
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Go Apple...
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