Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-19-2016, 12:42 PM   #41
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
Oh yeah - dump all those individual protections. We are at war! Never mind liberty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
I do not care that we are at war.... heck, let them break down your door and search because someone phoned in a tip and said you were a terrorist.... really?
Well, having extremely close and personal connections to both 9-11 and the Boston Bombings, I'm sure that my perspective is a bit skewed, but, you had to be there I guess.

How close? A relative and a neighbor's sister on flight 11.
DW was directly across the street from the devastation on Boylston St. less than 200 feet away. Took me two hours find her.

So, yeah, from my vantage point, we're at war; you can look at what's in my phone.
__________________

__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-19-2016, 01:13 PM   #42
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 583
I see that we are at war. War with terror, war with drug cartels, war with North Korea hacking, ditto Russian, Chinese, and on and on.

Security is a powerful defense, it is a bastion of freedom that can make the internet of things secure, the internet and online transactions secure. Being forced with this precedent to sacrifice so much future security for a dubious outcome is extremely short sighted.

A security expert in cyber was talking on NPR about making a back door in their product. The question was raised if anyone could hold out in a black van scenario or a family hostage situation. They decided to not create the back door.
__________________

__________________
devans0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 01:21 PM   #43
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,884
There's a good discussion about Apple vs FBI in "CBS This Morning"...

NYPD's John Miller: San Bernardino terror victims are Apple customers too - Videos - CBS News
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 01:32 PM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Following the nice weather
Posts: 6,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
For me it's an easy one: unlock the phone!

But I will agree philosophically that it's a challenging situation, but I come at it from the practical view of:
- we don't have any online privacy to begin with
- I don't have anything the FBI might be interested in
- we are at war in a sense and the rules become different in this case
Your comment on having nothing the FBI might be interested in is just a specific of the old "I've got nothing to hide" argument. But that's been shown over and over to be nothing other than a lazy intellectual response to an individual case.

Here's a good comment I read in a paper about the topic.

Quote:
By saying "I have nothing to hide," you are saying that itís OK for the government to infringe on the rights of potentially millions of your fellow Americans, possibly ruining their lives in the process. To me, the "I have nothing to hide" argument basically equates to "I donít care what happens, so long as it doesnít happen to me."

If you've got curtains, a shredder, a password on your computer or phone, you've got things you prefer others not have access to. Otherwise, feel free to post your SSN, mother's maiden name, etc on the internet. This also applies to your "no privacy online" comment. Obviously we do, and Apple and others are trying to strengthen it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
I do not care that we are at war.... heck, let them break down your door and search because someone phoned in a tip and said you were a terrorist.... really?
It happens already, and has a name - swatting. All it takes it getting someone POed at you, and the next thing you know the cops are breaking down the door.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting

Here's a good article about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/magazine/the-serial-swatter.html?_r=0
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Will Rogers, or maybe Sam Clemens
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 01:45 PM   #45
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,417
Feds having access to smart phones wouldn't have prevented 9/11 or any other terrorist attacks. That ticking time bomb scenario doesn't work if they have to go through millions or billions of combos.

The cops have gotten lazy, because now that people are putting all their personal info in their phones, they think there is this single point for all info. But they can't get those phones until after the terrorist act has been perpetrated.

The other part is, if they lose their phones, they can remotely wipe the iPhone or just change their plans.

What did the cops do before smart phones? The modern smart phones haven't been out even 10 years. Are they slacking on developing other sources of Intel because if they can crack the suspects phones they get all the evidence?

Now I'm getting alerts that the DoJ filed a motion to compel Apple to do this and said Apple securing their product is only about marketing. Makes me think less of this attorney general, who's been talked about as a potential SCOTUS nominee, and this administration in general.


If they put out a compromised firmware, it will get out in the wild and users would be vulnerable not only to hackers but thieves. iPhone theft went way down after they put in activation lock, requiring an iCloud password to make the iPhone useable at all. But if people can unlock the device or flash any firmware, then it brings back the incentive to steal iPhones again.

Truth is, terrorism is a very low probability great that only touches a few people. There are much greater everyday threats to the health and safety of Americans. Hell, the threat of being mugged or worse for your $800 iPhone is a much higher probability than becoming a victim of terrorism.
__________________
explanade is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 02:02 PM   #46
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,435
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
So, yeah, from my vantage point, we're at war; you can look at what's in my phone.
Just because you decided that you're willing to accept warrantless searches, does not mean the rest of us should be compelled to.

Governments have shown, throughout history and geography, that when they take civil liberties in the name of war/terrorism/whatever the problem du jour is, they will use those new powers 1% of the time for the intended purpose and 99% of the time for unrelated things just because it serves their purposes. And usually that ends up being abusive.

I hope Apple continues to fight this.
__________________
soupcxan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 02:15 PM   #47
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Also, look at what happened to the forfeiture laws that were put into place to go after the 'drug lords'.... now they take grandma's car because grand kid was driving and got pulled over with some drugs... not to sell, just had some... if you give them an inch some will take a mile (or more)....
Not to mention the routine forfeiture of small business funds simply because they "appeared" to be limiting their cash deposits to under $10,000. Didn't matter that there was absolutely no criminal activity involved. No trial, nada. But a sudden cash infusion into a law enforcement budget. Talk about creating something ripe for abuse!

These "expanded" powers are inevitably abused.
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 02:21 PM   #48
Moderator
Ronstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A little ways southwest of Chicago
Posts: 9,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupcxan View Post
Just because you decided that you're willing to accept warrantless searches, does not mean the rest of us should be compelled to.

Governments have shown, throughout history and geography, that when they take civil liberties in the name of war/terrorism/whatever the problem du jour is, they will use those new powers 1% of the time for the intended purpose and 99% of the time for unrelated things just because it serves their purposes. And usually that ends up being abusive.

I hope Apple continues to fight this.

Although I empathize with the victims of terrorism, I agree that Apple should fight this. Having to give one's intellectual property to the government sets a dangerous precedent.


Sent from my iPhone (:.using Early Retirement .//82339)
__________________
Ronstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 02:27 PM   #49
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Senator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Eagan, MN
Posts: 3,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertf57 View Post
The govt trying to compel a company to expend their resources and damage the value of their product for a case where the company isn't even a party

I'd fight this too.
I wonder if Apple would change their tune if the IRS sent an audit notice to all on the Board of directors...

Or if the Government blocked the airwaves for any phone company that did not give them the keys.

Let the Court proceedings continue and throw the CEO in jail for contempt until it finishes. And let the IRS continue to do the job that they are set out to do.

The cops have a warrant. Apple is using this as a cop out. They certainly support other areas that the constitution is being eroded away.

Imagine if a gun dealer did not turn over the records on a gun used in a crime.
__________________
FIRE no later than 7/5/2016 at 56 (done), securing '16 401K match (done), getting '15 401K match (done), LTI Bonus (done), Perf bonus (done), maxing out 401K (done), picking up 1,000 hours to get another year of pension (done), July 1st benefits (vacation day, healthcare) (done), July 4th holiday. 0 days left. (done) OFFICIALLY RETIRED 7/5/2016!!
Senator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 02:46 PM   #50
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,695
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupcxan View Post
Just because you decided that you're willing to accept warrantless searches, does not mean the rest of us should be compelled to.
I was just explaining how my own perspective is admittedly skewed.

I wasn't implying that I was advocating warrentless searches for anyone. At least I didn't intend to do that.

As I noted in an earlier post, philosophically I find it a challenging and interesting situation; but for me personally --whether I like or not-- takes me to a different place.
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 02:51 PM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,256
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Well, having extremely close and personal connections to both 9-11 and the Boston Bombings, I'm sure that my perspective is a bit skewed, but, you had to be there I guess.

How close? A relative and a neighbor's sister on flight 11.
DW was directly across the street from the devastation on Boylston St. less than 200 feet away. Took me two hours find her.

So, yeah, from my vantage point, we're at war; you can look at what's in my phone.

Considering that I actually saw the WTC come down out my apt window and lived there for an extra day before walking out of the zone, I think I can say I was there.... I did not know anybody who died, but every one of my coworkers did... a neighbor, a friend, somebody they said HI to in the building....

However, being there should not matter... I think most every American has an emotional tie in some way or another to the attack...
__________________
Texas Proud is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 02:53 PM   #52
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Senator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Eagan, MN
Posts: 3,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupcxan View Post
Just because you decided that you're willing to accept warrantless searches, does not mean the rest of us should be compelled to.

Governments have shown, throughout history and geography, that when they take civil liberties in the name of war/terrorism/whatever the problem du jour is, they will use those new powers 1% of the time for the intended purpose and 99% of the time for unrelated things just because it serves their purposes. And usually that ends up being abusive.

I hope Apple continues to fight this.
Virtually every DUI stop is a warrant-less search, but we as a society accept it.

This is a losing battle for Apple. It is ordered by the Court to comply. That is as good as a warrant.
__________________
FIRE no later than 7/5/2016 at 56 (done), securing '16 401K match (done), getting '15 401K match (done), LTI Bonus (done), Perf bonus (done), maxing out 401K (done), picking up 1,000 hours to get another year of pension (done), July 1st benefits (vacation day, healthcare) (done), July 4th holiday. 0 days left. (done) OFFICIALLY RETIRED 7/5/2016!!
Senator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 03:05 PM   #53
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Historic Florida
Posts: 1,645
Maybe I am missing something, but why Apple cannot retrieve the data and give it to the FBI without releasing any info or software (one time service), I do not know. I find it hard to believe that they do not know how to get data of their own designed piece of hardware. JMHO
__________________
"Arguing with an Engineer is like rolling in the mud with a pig. Just remember that the pig likes it."
ShokWaveRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 03:23 PM   #54
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator View Post
I wonder if Apple would change their tune if the IRS sent an audit notice to all on the Board of directors...

Or if the Government blocked the airwaves for any phone company that did not give them the keys.

Let the Court proceedings continue and throw the CEO in jail for contempt until it finishes. And let the IRS continue to do the job that they are set out to do.

These are excellent illustrations of the over-reach of government power many are concerned about...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 03:43 PM   #55
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,435
Also, whenever you see the government passing a law because "think of the children!!!" you know it's gonna be a bad law.
__________________
soupcxan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 03:46 PM   #56
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by ls99 View Post
+10

Edit Add

In another thread M Paquette gave a really good desription some of the security features. The linked thread is a fairly detailed discussion of how it is done and the problems it poses in breaking attempts.

Encryption isn‚€™t at stake, the FBI knows Apple already has the desired key | Ars Technica
I glanced through the above article, and saw that what the FBI wanted is assistance from Apple to get into this terrorist's phone and this phone only, and already had the permission from the phone owner's, namely San Bernardino County.

It is not about a backdoor into any and every phone. So, why is Apple resisting? For just causes, a court order will already let the police search a residence, open a bank vault, etc... We are not talking about letting the state into any random home or into any phone. If there is a court order to search a suspect's apartment, can the apartment landlord decline?

So, what is the problem?
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 03:47 PM   #57
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
photoguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Guy View Post
The FBI/CIA knows who the best hackers are. Some can be probably be found at Blackhat/Defcon, maybe. Hey in the US, these conferences are held in Las Vegas so why doesn't the FBI put some money up with a "specification" and challenge. If these guys/gals (hackers) are so good, simply offer "the first of them" to win (capture the flag in Defcon parlance) $10m to design and effectively demonstrate the code/method necessary to break into such a device, as specified. If successful, the FBI gets what they want, someone (the hacker) is rewarded for their efforts/skills, and Apple would know they need to fix their code.
I'm guessing that either the FBI can already get in the phone themselves, either by writing the software they want to Apple to make or by some other hack. Probably they could also give it to the NSA and have them get in.

I think this is all about picking the most "sympathetic" case to set a precedent and force tech companies to put in back doors.

I bet if Apple is forced to comply, the next thing we will see is China doing the same.
__________________
photoguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 03:53 PM   #58
Moderator
Ronstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A little ways southwest of Chicago
Posts: 9,337
Maybe Apple can't assist the FBI in breaking the terrorist's phone without giving an indication of how to break all iPhones.


Sent from my iPhone (:.using Early Retirement .//82339)
__________________
Ronstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 04:02 PM   #59
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post

So, what is the problem?
Apple has no relationship with the contents of the phone. It would be acting as a skilled agent on behalf of the authorities. If it acknowledges the request is legitimate and it has the capability to do so, it could be compelled to repeat this again, and by other authorities.

If the authorities want the contents of the phone, they have the authority to access it to retrieve them.

+1@Photoguy. Not just China. Every gov't around the world and across the US.
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2016, 04:02 PM   #60
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by photoguy View Post
I think this is all about picking the most "sympathetic" case to set a precedent and force tech companies to put in back doors.

I bet if Apple is forced to comply, the next thing we will see is China doing the same.
That's what I think.
__________________

__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Way to go FBI Mwsinron Other topics 30 05-10-2007 07:57 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:08 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.