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Old 10-08-2014, 12:45 PM   #21
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Switched to Mac when had first grandchild and bought the Nikon digital slr camera; went to the Mac for the photo programs and the display. I would never go back for the simple reason that I'm not that much into fooling with technology, I want it to work. My experience has been that with Mac issues I can Google the problem and find a simple fix, or in one case of some very difficult Time Capsule problems I just load it up and go to the Genius Bar, for free quick service only 4 miles away. Since retiring I don't have a cadre of IT resources within a few desks of me, so the premium for stuff that works together with easily solved problems and excellent customer service is worth it to me.
Is the Genius Bar free once you are outside the 3 year Apple Care? I'm still having problems resulting from their (finally, after 6 months!) repair of my MacBook Pro and need assistance.
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Old 10-08-2014, 12:49 PM   #22
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Yeah, I guess I just need to get to the corner store.... I don't do much intensive computing any more now that I am retired.
This is true of many people, including many who are not retired.

Often, a tablet computer (iPad or Android) will fill the bill just fine. Or, a Chromebook if you have a fast, reliable Internet connection available.
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Old 10-08-2014, 01:00 PM   #23
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Is the Genius Bar free once you are outside the 3 year Apple Care? I'm still having problems resulting from their (finally, after 6 months!) repair of my MacBook Pro and need assistance.
There is some small level of service they will give you for free. When the HD in my old MacBook failed, they did a quick analysis and gave me a repair estimate. The genius also told me that buying my own replacement drive and installing it was not much harder than using a screwdriver and unplugging and plugging in the new HD. He referred me to some YouTube videos showing how to do the replacement.

IMHO, Macs are more expensive for two reasons: 1.) They use high quality parts, the same as the more expensive Dell and Lenovo machines do. When the small notebook computers came out ($200 to $300), Steve Jobs said they didn't know how to make such a cheap computer that wasn't garbage. Having seen ones owned by friends, I have to agree on the garbage part of that comment. Their notebooks are long gone, while my Macbook still runs well, though a bit slow compared to modern machines.

Reason 2.) They offer the great support at the Apple stores. (see above). My guess is that the Apple stores make up the majority of the extra cost of the Mac. If you are a geek and like to tinker with computers, you probably don't need an Apple store. If not, it's very nice to have a place to go to get knowledgeable help.

My 2.
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Old 10-08-2014, 02:04 PM   #24
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I grew up working on Windows, and in my 20s owned a Gateway desktop and then a Gateway Laptop. I made the move to Apple back in 2005 and won't ever look back. My wife comes from an Apple family.

Pros:
- Seamless integration across devices with little to no effort: iPhones, iPads, AppleTV, Airport, Time Machine.
- Better software and operating systems (IMO)
- Better durability - my previous "top of the line" Windows machines would turn obsolete by year 3 in terms of performance. My 2008 iMac still runs as well as the day I bought it, even in light of three OS upgrades.
- Better security.

Cons:
- Higher up front cost for hardware. This is offset by the fact that my Apple computers have outlasted every Windows machine. Six years strong and not slowing on the $2k iMac.
- Lack of good financial management software. I mitigate this by using Personal Capital for expense and investment tracking as well as TurboTax online for taxes.
- Integration with work files (gov't uses Windows/Office which does not seamlessly integrate with Numbers, etc.). You can buy Office for Mac, but I haven't sprung for it since the early days when I had a student discount.

There are probably others, but Apple seems to be "playing nicer" with everyone else these days. I can't see a reason why I would ever go back to Windows at home.

I suspect DW and I will not "re-up" our laptop now that she's done with her MBA. Two iPads and a desktop seems the way to go!
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Old 10-08-2014, 02:15 PM   #25
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I compare PC vs MAC to State College vs Private college. PC and State College give you what you need at a reasonable cost. MAC and Private College get you a slightly better product for a very large premium. IMO if money is a concern at all then PC is the better option.
Kind of a bad metaphor. State college might cost you $10k/year or less. Private could be $25k-50k per year.

A top of the line Mac will run you $2000 and last you twice as long (in some cases) as the high-end Dell machine that runs $800.

Or you can get a MacBook Air for $900, compared to a Dell laptop starting at $300.

Not exactly bank-breaking, especially not compared to the costs of college.
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Old 10-08-2014, 02:15 PM   #26
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Apple - Advantage, IOS is for Apple and Mac/IDevices are made to run the IOS. Therefore they do not have the same integration problems that Windows sometimes does. Still, when Apple upgrades their IOS things don't always go smoothly.

Windows - Has to run on multiple manufacturers machine, with accessiories from many different vendors. It works most of the time, however, same as Apple, new OS may not work with old equipment.

Windows has about 92% of the market. Heck, it is estimated XP still has a 25% market share. Apple has about 5%. That's why, historically, new software was developed for Windows. In the business market, I believe, MS is even stronger. That's why I recommend students learn Windows. Yes MAC is sexy, and fun, but Windows is the computer of business. Exception is the manipulation of images. While this is not my area, I have always heard Apple dominates this arena.

Having said this, I use Apple for Iphone, and Ipad. I have used Android and it was OK, but my next phone will most likely be another Apple, and the Dell Venue Windows tablet is almost unusable. Nice small computer, but not a great tablet.

My next desktop/laptop will be Windows. Cheaper, I don't have to learn a new system, I am reasonably guaranteed it will work with my printers and stuff and no learning curve for DW. I have had a computer since 1979, I have had one virus. Most of that time I didn't even run anti-virus software, and have never run any I paid for. i.e. Avast, Avg, Windows Defender. So I am not really concerned with viruses.
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Old 10-08-2014, 02:25 PM   #27
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- Better durability - my previous "top of the line" Windows machines would turn obsolete by year 3 in terms of performance. My 2008 iMac still runs as well as the day I bought it, even in light of three OS upgrades.
- Better security.

Cons:
- Higher up front cost for hardware. This is offset by the fact that my Apple computers have outlasted every Windows machine. Six years strong and not slowing on the $2k iMac.
+1

My first iMac (2007 dual core Intel processor) is still running strong though it no longer will run the latest OS. But, it works well for the vast majority of tasks, and I have not seen the slowing down effect that I witnessed with my Windows computers as they aged. It boots just as fast as ever, and runs just as fast as ever, though obviously slower than more modern computers.

My 2008 MacBook runs the current OS, and is supposed to be able to run the new one due out later this year. Again, it runs just about as fast as ever, but slower than a modern computer.

Despite the above, I still wonder if most people are not better off with a tablet or a Chromebook for most day-to-day activities.
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Old 10-08-2014, 02:44 PM   #28
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I grew up working on Windows, and in my 20s owned a Gateway desktop and then a Gateway Laptop. I made the move to Apple back in 2005 and won't ever look back. My wife comes from an Apple family.

Pros:
- Seamless integration across devices with little to no effort: iPhones, iPads, AppleTV, Airport, Time Machine.
- Better software and operating systems (IMO)
- Better durability - my previous "top of the line" Windows machines would turn obsolete by year 3 in terms of performance. My 2008 iMac still runs as well as the day I bought it, even in light of three OS upgrades.
- Better security.

Cons:
- Higher up front cost for hardware. This is offset by the fact that my Apple computers have outlasted every Windows machine. Six years strong and not slowing on the $2k iMac.
- Lack of good financial management software. I mitigate this by using Personal Capital for expense and investment tracking as well as TurboTax online for taxes.
- Integration with work files (gov't uses Windows/Office which does not seamlessly integrate with Numbers, etc.). You can buy Office for Mac, but I haven't sprung for it since the early days when I had a student discount.

There are probably others, but Apple seems to be "playing nicer" with everyone else these days. I can't see a reason why I would ever go back to Windows at home.

I suspect DW and I will not "re-up" our laptop now that she's done with her MBA. Two iPads and a desktop seems the way to go!
Continuity with the upcoming Yosemite and iOS 8 devices will be interesting. You can take calls on your Macs and as you leave, the calls are suppose to be transferred to your iPhone.


I'm wary of uploading data so I use Turbo Tax for Mac, free from Vanguard for some members but I go for the Premier version which is $10.

Personal Capital seems to look over your data, tries to sell you financial planning services? I have the iPad app. but haven't loaded any data on it for that reason.
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Old 10-08-2014, 03:15 PM   #29
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I have the definitive answer.

Have been taking Apples and PCs apart for over 25 years. I've cleaned 100's of these systems off for various reasons. I've gone into battle for macs on the corporate front. I've made a living from servicing small business systems, both Mac and PC. In our home we are constantly turning over notebooks, desktops, and tablets. I do not have a dog in this fight...

What is your need? Answer the question, set a budget, ask around about the best applications, and see what fits.
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Old 10-08-2014, 03:52 PM   #30
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After reading thru the thread, it's clear that Mac is the way to go.

Now I may be biased as I/we made the switch in Jan 2005. The household now has 3 iMacs, 1 Macbook, 3 iPad, 2 iPhones, 2 Apple TVs, and an Airport Express as the router for all these devices. These things just work and they last. My 2007 White Macbook is still running like new. It only has an 80GB HD, but I only use about 30 GB. Don't use it to store files, just to have mobile internet and email access. Also, I reboot this macbook about every 90 days! Try that with a PC laptop. My Sony VAIO crashed daily for any number of reasons, and I had to do a fresh WinXP install every 6 months. Finally gave that problem to a nephew. Good riddens.

One of the top benefits of leaving the corporate world for ER, is no more PCs in my life. Nuf said.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:03 PM   #31
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For less teeth gnashing over time, let your software needs drive your hardware choices. Make a list of the programs you want to use then choose the hardware platform that runs the most of them the best.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:20 PM   #32
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You are comparing Apples to Oranges... The thing with Macs is they start with a pretty high base machine...

For example:
  • The processor in the Mac you listed is the Core i7 wheile the Dell is the Celeron. The Mac is significantly faster.
  • The Mac is 16gb memory vs the Dell having 4gb
  • the Mac has a 265gb Flash drive vs a 512gb drive for the Dell (flash drive much faster and more expensive)
  • The Mac has a much better screen
If you go to the dell site and pick any dell 15 laptop and upgrade all the specs to similar to the Mac, it will come in slightly (10%?) less than the Mac. Comparing those two laptops is like comparing a Pinto to a BMW, they will both get you to the corner store, but if you are going to go often and a long way, you will be happier with the BMW (though it will cost more).

I currently lead tech teams and have done that for 25 years and have always used a PC. At home I have Mac laptops.

When people ask me my recommendations, I tell them to get a Mac because they just work. If you are someone that likes tinkering with internal settings you have a lot more to tinker with on the PC.
Apple devices including Macs may well be worth the premium, but I think it's misleading to suggest the premium is only 10%, that's certainly not what I found when I actually dug into the nuts and bolts (neither Apple or Dell show specs in detail, you have to dig some).

I was all set to buy an iMac last year even knowing there was some premium. Below is an update to the pre-purchase comparison I did last year, the Dell shown has several significant components that are superior (in green). I've also left off some major (chipset) and minor features the Dell offers that the iMac does not - the Apple premium was 60%! It was 100%+ in my case because I caught a Dell sale and already had a monitor.

If you can provide an actual 'apples to apples' comparison showing only a 10% premium, I'd like to see it.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:30 PM   #33
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Personal Capital seems to look over your data, tries to sell you financial planning services? I have the iPad app. but haven't loaded any data on it for that reason.
Personal Capital aligns you with a financial advisor who will attempt to contact you periodically and get you to sign on for his services. In the nine months I've been using it, I think I have received four phone calls and one email from my "guy." The one time I spoke with him, I told him I was very comfortable handling my own financials and did not desire profressional assistance. It's not been hard to ignore, and I find the App very useful, so much so that I chose it over Mint after playing with both.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:41 PM   #34
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Apple devices including Macs may well be worth the premium, but I think it's misleading to suggest the premium is only 10%, that's certainly not what I found when I actually dug into the nuts and bolts (neither Apple or Dell show specs in detail, you have to dig some).

I was all set to buy an iMac last year even knowing there was some premium. Below is an update to the pre-purchase comparison I did last year, the Dell shown has several significant components that are superior (in green). I've also left off some major (chipset) and minor features the Dell offers that the iMac does not - the Apple premium was 60%! It was 100%+ in my case because I caught a Dell sale and already had a monitor.

If you can provide an actual 'apples to apples' comparison showing only a 10% premium, I'd like to see it.
Nicely done. I would've expected the Mac to be more than 60% of the cost of the Dell, honestly. The key for me is that my Mac desktop and my two Macbooks have all lasted 100%+ longer than their equivalent Windows machines. All were high-end products at the time:

Gateway PC (3 years) vs. iMac (6 years and counting)
Dell Laptop (2 years) vs. MacBook Pro (4years) and Macbook (4 years and counting)

In each case with the Windows machines, they bogged down and were no longer servicable machines despite regular software maintenance. As software updated, the machines became unbearably slow. Meanwhile, I've upgraded the OS on my iMac three times, and it still runs the same as the day I bought it.

Not that they're an investment, per se, but a dollar spent on the Macs goes farther than a dollar spent on the Windows machines, IMO.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:44 PM   #35
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You would definitely see an improvement on that 6-year old iMac, esp. with the Fusion drive.

But there are also rumors of an iMac with Retina display, perhaps to be announced next week (10/16) where they're definitely expected to announce new iPads.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:53 PM   #36
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If you can provide an actual 'apples to apples' comparison showing only a 10% premium, I'd like to see it.
I've done this comparison a few times when I've gone to buy my mac (mac pro or high end laptop). It's difficult to do because there are always differences between the machines and in form factors and so the two devices can never be made exactly the same.

Here's an example for a high end laptop i7, 16gb, 512ssd, weight < 5lbs, retina screen. The Dell ($2350) is slightly cheaper than apple retail ($2500) but more than if you use various apple discounts ($2000 for developer).

I suspect that for lower end macs, the cost differential swings to PCs.
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Old 10-08-2014, 05:01 PM   #37
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Nicely done. I would've expected the Mac to be more than 60% of the cost of the Dell, honestly. The key for me is that my Mac desktop and my two Macbooks have all lasted 100%+ longer than their equivalent Windows machines. All were high-end products at the time:

Gateway PC (3 years) vs. iMac (6 years and counting)
Dell Laptop (2 years) vs. MacBook Pro (4years) and Macbook (4 years and counting)

In each case with the Windows machines, they bogged down and were no longer servicable machines despite regular software maintenance. As software updated, the machines became unbearably slow. Meanwhile, I've upgraded the OS on my iMac three times, and it still runs the same as the day I bought it.

Not that they're an investment, per se, but a dollar spent on the Macs goes farther than a dollar spent on the Windows machines, IMO.
Not sure how I got myself into this role While I haven't come here to defend PC's at all...

I've used desktop and laptop PCs at home and at work for over 30 years (since IBM was the leading provider), and I've never had one die or go obsolete in 3 years. Mine have all lasted at least 5 years or more, and were not replaced because they 'failed' - they became obsolete due to processor speed/memory that couldn't handle newer software, or a HD that was about to fail in one instance.

I am totally smitten with our iPads (and iPods before that) and again, I think Apple devices may well be worth their premiums, not because the hardware is better, but more because the software/device eco-system is so well developed and the hardware components are good quality. BUT Apple does not have any unique hardware components, you can get a PC with any CPU, chipset, power supply, HD, RAM, GPU, etc. you'll find in an iMac.

Two other points:
1) There are definitely some brands of PC that I'd never consider. I've had good luck with Dell and there are other decent brands, but some are awful. You avoid that issue buying an iMac.
2) I'd add that while privacy is increasingly an issue on all ecosystems, I am convinced Apple is less intrusive and has a better framework for protecting users personal info than Microsoft or Google - another plus for Apple. Win 8.x is pretty "demanding" and Google, especially Android, has become far too intrusive. Apple makes money selling hardware (and the software for it), Google makes money selling targeted ads which depends on knowing as much as possible about it's users. And Microsoft has it's claws out like never before based on my Win 8.x experience - it took quite an effort to avoid sharing a lot of info they "expected."
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Old 10-08-2014, 05:23 PM   #38
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I'm basically an Apple guy, since I bought my first one (Apple II+) in 1980 and have bought innumerable others over the years (currently use a MacBook Pro).

I w*rked for a developer of custom Mac software for a number of years, and did both project management and phone tech support for Fortune 100 companies.

Then I worked as an independent consultant on Windows software for a number of years. A different paradigm, but not really all that different.

Finally, in my last w*rking incarnation before final retirement, I did UNIX stuff for another custom developer. That seemed ridiculously transparent compared to the others, and I found it a snap.

When Steve Jobs founded NEXT, it was closer to UNIX than anything else, and he brought that back with him when he rejoined Apple. So the current Mac OS X is similar enough that it's easy for a user to hack into it and modify things as desired (but harder to hack from the outside than Windows is).

After nearly 35 years with Apple products at home, I find the hardware to be superb, the software easy (for me) to understand, and the support (including at the local Apple store) simply outstanding. Those are all attributes that I have never found with Windows hardware/software.

IMHO, it really just boils down to what you're personally comfortable with.
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:00 PM   #39
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I've used Macs since the 80s. though the office always had PCs and Windows. I like Apple's tight integration of desktop and mobile devices. Also, if you need to use Windows programs, you can just use your iMac since it will run both operating systems., booting up Windows through Bootcamp or with a Virtual machine via Parallels, etc.

Recently I gave my 2011 vintage iMac a new lease on life by having the original, rotational, drive replaced by a SSD. The speed increase for any task that requires accessing the drive is remarkable.
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:05 PM   #40
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