Are illegal immigrants a serious problem or not?

[Mr._johngalt]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

I disagree with you, JG.

Lawbreaking employers who hire illegals must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  Why should they be above the law? I don't understand your thinking here.

Moreover, these laws and penalties must be toughened up so that offenders who get busted suffer punishments that cause them to cry tears of blood.

This is not mutually exclusive with the idea of border control- it's part of the package.

Look.......the government is not doing anything serious about
illegal immigration.  They just wink at it or give it lip service.
The left leaning types (some on this board) think once they get in it is almost required to hire them at something.  So, employers are only
taking advantage of a situation set up by the current system.

Disclaimer:  I obviously have no respect for authority and always
trust the "profit motive" before government.

If I thought that prosecuting employers of illegals would actually
help solve the problem, then I might get on board.  

JG

 

[unclemick]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

ok - let me toss one in

Boo Custer - yea Crazy Horse.

Sioux Independance Day was when? June 26

Learned that from Ted - one of my first lead engineers at Boeing.

'They Died With Their Boots On.' Errol Flynn - over the top as usual - colorful misread of history.

Loved that movie as kid - as well as Garry Owen tune.

The fun is ongoing - expect all kinds of looney tune interactions as we work through the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, and Immigration data bases/laws/ enforcement levels and march up the learning curve.

The law passers - aka politicians - and voters will be bellying up to bar along the way - whether we wish to or not.

 

[HFWR]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

You a native American, JG?

I believe the premise was that all immmigrants should be kept out, and all others deported. There was no mention of "illegal"...

So, unless you're an "Indian", you're an immigrant.

 

[sgeeeee]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Yes, I believe the borders must be enforced by any means necessary. I am not opposed to legal immigration. I am opposed to illegal immigration.

You didn't answer the question, Art.  I asked if you would be against making it easy and cheap to cross the border legally?  If people crossed legally, they would not be illegal aliens. 

So once you changed the question from the one I asked to the one you wanted to answer, the rest of your post is irrelevant.  Want to try again?

And while you're at it, why not look back at my original set of questions.  You want to rant on about how bad illegal immigration is, but you have failed to address a single one of the points that needs to be addressed before a solution can be reached.  Simply saying, "close the border to illegals", is naive, and unproductive.  It's about like saying, "Make people stop lying."  It may be a good idea, but you are only whining if you haven't proposed a realistic goal (how much lying can we really stop?) a realistic metric (how will we know every time someone lies?) and understand the cost (How much does it cost to strap every human being up to a lie detector test 24/7 and then to monitor those tests?)

 

[HFWR]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Random thoughts...

The gangs and drug-related violence are the result of prohibition; end it!

Ending prohibition would also reduce corruption, both here and south of the border, which would improve the chances for meaningful economic growth in Mexico and beyond.

In my view, prosecuting employers who hire illegal aliens is the only EFFECTIVE way to slow/stop illegal immigration. No job, no reason to immigrate.

Illegals from where ever should not be eligible for govt bennies.

Neither should mega-corporations.

I am neither stupid, immoral, unethical, or un-patriotic if I happen to disagree with Art or Lex.

I still think this board is slightly right-of-center.

I am done with this topic; flame-proof underwear in place!!  

 

[LEX]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

I am proud to be member of the most recent minority, being Euro-American.  Did anyone on this board know that euromericans have actually contributed value to the United States?  Its true.   Although the revisionists would suggest that Europe = evil, and persons of color = virtue, The now politically WRONG segment called Euro-Americans helped form what is now a world power and immigrant magnet.  

 

[Art]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

If people crossed legally, they would be illegal aliens. 

They would?

 

[Art]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

You didn't answer the question, Art.  I asked if you would be against making it easy and cheap to cross the border legally? 

I did answer your question, you just didn't like my answer, which was:

"LEGAL border crossing should be as cheap and easy as possible consistent with effective public health/criminal background/national security screening."

"ILLEGAL border crossing should be made impossible- by any means necessary."

 

[Caroline]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Education is a critical factor in how productive immigrants become as taxpaying adults.
An immigrant with less than a high school education costs the economy about $13,000 over his life span, the study says. But immigrants with more than a high school education produce a net gain of about $198,000.

"Most studies see only the cost of education, they don't see the return,"

At the risk of sounding petulant, may I point out that nobody seems to have noticed some of the points in my earlier post?  Now, I know darned well my post was not nearly so much fun as name calling, character assassination, and general horsing around, but what about it, folks?

If I told you (which I just did, above), that we could charge new immigrants $198,000 to enter the country, have them toil for starvation wages in our fields and sweatshops for many years, and that the only cost to us would be a high-school education for their children, how many would object to that? 

Caroline

 

[tozz]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Ad hominem attack?  Perhaps.  Or maybe just a gentle observation.  

I'm just guessing.  But maybe the fact that, for the most part, "darkies" are massing at the border contributes to the linda blair head-spin nature of this discussion.

Congrats to TOZZ for the first accusation of racism since I foreswore ad hominem attacks mid-thread! Attaboy! 

 

[Art]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

But maybe the fact that, for the most part, darkies are massing at the border...

"darkies", Tozz, my non-racist friend?

 

[unclemick]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Hmmm

I thought we aleady did that last century - with all those dirty smelly, uneducated Euro - Amercian wannabes - Ellis Island, Statue of Liberty and all that. I believe we got our money's worth.

I read somewhere - that 1/2 the 7th Cavalry at the Little Big Horn were immigrants. Custer shoulda had a lot more.

As for the new ones - let them in on credit - and slick em outta their money in the stretch.

I'd like to see a lot more Nigerians - we had a lot of fun with them on the old forum. Should be a challenge to get out money back via taxes once we get them over here.

 

[Art]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

If I told you (which I just did, above), that we could charge new immigrants $198,000 to enter the country, have them toil for starvation wages in our fields and sweatshops for many years, and that the only cost to us would be a high-school education for their children, how many would object to that? 

This is a gross oversimplification of the problem, ignoring, as it does, crime, health and other costs, but taking your figures at face value- I, for one, don't want anyone in this country being forced to "toil for starvation wages in our fields and sweatshops for many years".

Call me a bleeding-heart liberal. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[HFWR]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Call me a bleeding-heart liberal. It wouldn't be the first time.

Art, you do have a sense of humor!!

Caroline: Since I'm not against legal immigration... Education is key for both "native" and immigrant. Kids should be in school, learning, among other things, to speak, read, and write English.

If we as a nation feel the need to have the now illegal immigrants in this country, we need to figure out a way to make them legal. And they need to be willing to assimilate; i.e learn English, pay taxes, etc.

One bit of irony is that we Euro-mericans bad mouth the folks "back home" for being socialists............

 

[Caroline]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Let's close the borders to ILLEGAL immigration, subject employers who hire undocumented workers to draconian punishment, arrange for the correct number of LEGAL immigrants to do the work we need done in exchange for fair wages and benefits, and live happily ever after. What a concept.

Pay legal immigrants a living wage?  This actually works for me.  Unfortunately, it's not going to happen so long as folks are calling one another names and running right past solid research in favor of mutual scorching.  

For those that are interested -- check the logic of a very-well-researched report (complete report at
http://www-mcnair.berkeley.edu/96journal/pereyra.html)


1.  CALIFORNIA PRODUCES BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF CROPS EACH YEAR.  "California has led the nation in farm production and income for almost five consecutive decades, producing half of the nation's fruits, nuts and vegetables. Gross farm income is now over $20 billion annually. Agriculture supports, directly or indirectly, 1.2 million jobs in California, and exports over $11 billion worth of crops annually."[1]

2.  CALFORNIA'S CROPS DEMAND LABOR-INTENSIVE WORK, "especially at the time of harvest, and more so for so-called specialty crops such as strawberries, avocados, melons, almonds and cauliflower. This type of crop requires the greatest manual labor for the greatest number of hours, leading to jobs for tens of thousands of immigrants and migrants ach harvest year."

3.  CALIFORNIA OWES MUCH OF ITS SUCCESS TO CHEAP LABOR BY MIGRANTS.  "...exploitable Mexican labor for California agriculture ensures lower production costs and higher profits; this cost-efficiency measure has contributed to California's distinctive competitiveness and economic success.

Furthermore...THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES BENEFITS ALSO ...about "10 percent of all U.S. agriculture exports are shipped by California farmers,"[2] and expanding trade will ensure U.S. economic growth and stability.

4.  ACCORDINGLY, AGRIBUSINESS WORKS TO PROTECT ITS CHEAP SOURCE OF LABOR, both legal... "the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) specifically included special farm worker provisions satisfying the demand for new immigrant agricultural labor by increasing the legal immigration quotas."  

AND ILLEGAL:  "Farm employers argued that many newly legalized workers would quit doing farm work. They claimed the provision made them vulnerable to labor shortages which could lead to unharvested crops and a loss of profit. Furthermore, under IRCA, they risked penalities for hiring illegal workers to alleviate the presumed labor shortages. Therefore, farmers would have the option to receive RAW workers if they needed them. "

5.  And the government cooperates:  "Mr. Don Riding, representing the INS in the 1987 IRCA Hearing, asserted, "the border patrol has not been in the fields. . . .the law [IRCA] doesn't permit it. We have to have a warrant in order to enter the agricultural areas or we have to have the permission of the farmers."


There are many ways of measuring costs and benefits of immigration.  Those in the business of measuring costs and benefits, the agribusiness corporations and the government that serves them, are writing and enforcing (or not enforcing, as the case may be) laws that perpetuate this system. 

  Anyone targeting illegal immigrant supply is missing the point.  Immigrants are trying to put bread on the table for their families, and they're not going to stop anytime soon.  Getting angry about that diverts us from the real problem and the real solution.

Demand comes from growers directly, and from the American people indirectly, when they shop on price alone. Step up to the plate, create a group of people who are willing to pay more for produce picked, garments sewn, and laundry washed by LEGALS, and you might have a chance.

Caroline

 

[Art]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Demand comes from growers directly, and from the American people indirectly, when they shop on price alone. Step up to the plate, create a group of people who are willing to pay more for produce picked, garments sewn, and laundry washed by LEGALS, and you might have a chance.

Or... we could bring back the "bracero" (?) concept and let pre-screened, temporary migrant workers in to do seasonal work and then leave.

But one way or another, our open borders have got to be controlled.

 

[sgeeeee]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

. . . "ILLEGAL border crossing should be made impossible- by any means necessary."

Sorry about the typo in my earlier post, Art.  It should, of course, have read

If people crossed legally, they would not be illegal aliens.  

But let's get onto this final point you just made.  How on earth would you do that, Art?  

Post guards?  

1000 miles of border
1/4 mile maximum visibility
24/7 operation
52 weeks a year

That means we need to hire and train abou 5000 to 6000 border guards.  (They take vacations and days off, so you have to have more than 3 per day at each station.)

Of course a group of 5000 to 6000 guards will need an infrastructure of managers and office support to keep them organized, motivated and focused.  With loaded overhead these guards run about $200/hour => $2B per year labor charge.  

But there's more.  You have to recruit those guards.  You have to train them so they understand immigration laws, arrest methods, how to use their guns.  You have to provide them some sort of transportation so they can run down the illegals they see.  You have to provide them with some sort of shelter from the sweltering heat they will be in all day.  Now, I realize that for the current administration, adding $5B to $10B to the deficit may not mean much.  But I would like to see some sort of legitimate analysis that proves to me that this kind of expenditure is worth it.  

Would you rather build an impenetrable wall?  That's about 5.3M linear feet of wall or fence.  You might be able to put up 10 foot cyclone fence with a barbed wire top for a few $100M.  Of course this kind of fence would not be much of a deterent in remote areas -- and most of this dessert border is remote.  Even a 15 foot high brick wall (which would cost $Billions again) can be scaled or tunneled under.  So this barrier needs either to be monitored (guards again) or equiped with remote sensors (very expensive).

And then there is the indirect cost of replacing the labor force that these people make up.  I can guarantee you a significant increase in your grocery bills, landscaping bills, household maintenance bills . . . if this workforce is eliminated.  That may not be a significant factor depending on how many illegal aliens there really are.  

Art, you need to look at my original questions.  I have yet to see a reasonable cost/benefit analysis of the illegal alien presence.  My experience leads me to believe that the positive impact of non-legal immigrants in our work force is far larger than any negative impacts.  It just doesn't make sense to spend even more money to eliminate the small amount of bad but also the good.  

 

[Art]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Well, let's see.

Maybe we relocate our troops in Europe to bases on the border since we don't need to worry about a Soviet tank attack anymore.

Maybe we fly unmanned drones 24/7 with the appropriate sensors to detect human traffic.

Maybe we flood the border with those cheap motion detector sensors we have now.

Don't know what it will cost.

Don't care what it will cost.

As long as it gets done- preferably before the next 9/11.

 

[unclemick]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Heh, heh, heh

Maybe cheaper to outlaw American produce and import it.

1. Other than the great fun of pontification - we won't solve it on this forum.
2. Immigration is possibly pole vaulting over tiny rat poo poo.

Mr G down the road - is thinking of moving his operation to Mexico. Louisiana seafood is under assault from imports - so his 'legal' Vietnamese crab pickers and green card Mexicans are more worried about working/not and he - whether he can stay in business.

I plan to get around to reading Friedman's The Earth is Flat.

So while IT types lament loss of jobs overseas - I see PBS tv stuff about the U.S, raiding nursing staffs around the world to fill vacancies - with the subsequent bitching by the home countries.

The world trade agreements/battles and issues of job mobility will be a hot topic for this generation.

Good thing I don't work anymore.

Ag subsidies worldwide(think French farmers) and trade barriers will come increasingly under the microscope. Possibly even taxpayer supported education for certain skills - likely to skip.

Singapore has had some problems keeping their hands on taxpayer funded civil service college ed. - I believe at one time they had to buy back their education to go private.

Welcome to the flat earth. Hopefully the view from the bleachers will be fun - popcorn anyone?

 

[Caroline]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Don't know what it will cost.

Don't care what it will cost.

As long as it gets done- preferably before the next 9/11. 

There you have it, folks and thanks, Art, for the clarification. 

Art, as he himself says, will not be swayed by financial arguments in particular, as he just doesn't care. 

Logical argument in general can't be expected to work either -- this thread STARTED with a lament about illegals brining in disease but has now moved, without solving the orignial complaint, to 9/11.  And it will probably move again.

On to the next issue -- ta ta and best wishes to all!
Caroline

 

[Art]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

On to the next issue -- ta ta and best wishes to all!
Caroline

Caroline, I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink.

I've posted PLENTY of cost stats from the AMA, etc. I referred you to the google keywords for those who want to read more.

I can't be bothered to retype what I've already posted because you are too lazy to read what's already posted.

Have a nice 4th. Have a beer or two. And read the posts before you make such assinine complaints.

 

[sgeeeee]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Well, let's see.

Maybe we relocate our troops in Europe to bases on the border since we don't need to worry about a Soviet tank attack anymore.

So you see the threat posed by people crossing the US-Mexican border as equivalent to the threat once posed by the Soviet nuclear capability. That explains a lot about your passion. But I think your attitude is probably viewed as alarmist and misguided by a lot of people. The destructive capability of nuclear bombs was verifiable and real. The rhetoric of the Soviet Union during the cold war was clearly antagonistic and aimed at the West. The Mexican men I've met crossing the border were not nearly as scary. They may have been thirsty, but they were not explosive.

Maybe we fly unmanned drones 24/7 with the appropriate sensors to detect human traffic.

Maybe we flood the border with those cheap motion detector sensors we have now.

Don't know what it will cost.

Don't care what it will cost.

As long as it gets done- preferably before the next 9/11.

Drones don't work without human monitors and deployable force on the ground. Cheap motion sensors over a 1000 mile border will be sending false positives for every deer, bobcat, coyote and blowing tumblweed in the dessert.

You may not care what it costs, but that only proves you are irrational. I think we've brought this discussion to the point I had hoped we might reach. You have no rational plan. You only have irrational fears. I think it is unrealistic of you to believe that most Americans would be willing to act on your irrational fears by spending billions of dollars of their money.

 

[Art]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

So you see the threat posed by people crossing the US-Mexican border as equivalent to the threat once posed by the Soviet nuclear capability. 

No. Not at all. But we don't need as many troops in Europe as we once did, so we might want to relocate them here where we can make better use of them. Military training is often interrupted by illegal aliens wandering across our training ranges- troops can be justifiably used to prevent this. I do see wide open borders as not only a health and crime issue, but also a national security issue.

And for those who insist that I do a cost benefit analysis for you, why don't YOU start by telling ME the cost of the next big terrorist attack on the U.S., which most analysts think is pretty much a given.

And if you know for a fact that the attack will not come from enemy agents across our totally exposed 1,000 mile open border, maybe you can tell us how you arrived at this conclusion.

 

[Art]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Reprinted from NewsMax.com

Monday, July 4, 2005 5:44 p.m. EDT
Hillary Clinton Blasts President Bush on Border Security

2008 presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton is blasting President Bush for lax enforcement of the nation's immigration laws, saying the White House has dropped the ball on border security and put the country at risk for another major terrorist attack.

In a statement posted to her newly revamped official Senate Web site, Clinton charges: "The Bush administration is failing to meet what should be the basic requirements of immigration policy: continuing our American tradition of welcoming immigrants who follow the rules and are trying to build a better life for their families, while strengthening national security in a post 9-11 world."

In a potentially potent bid to win Red State support in 2008, the former first lady is playing the role of tough cop:

"Our current immigration laws need to be reformed," she urges. "We need a better solution to the question of illegal immigration which recognizes the conflict between the need to enforce the law, and the reality that too many employers are using undocumented workers today."

Clinton says that while "this administration has failed to provide the resources to protect our borders, or a better system to keep track of entrants to this country ... I welcome the addition of more border security."

She pins blame for the failure directly on the Oval Office, saying, "President Bush refused to provide the necessary funding in his Fiscal Year 2006 proposed budget sufficient to hire all of the border patrol agents that had been authorized."

"Fortunately," Clinton adds, "during the Senate’s debate on the budget in March of 2005, we passed an amendment to provide increased funding for border patrol agents."

Then, in a none-too-subtle dig at GOP foot-dragging on the immigration issue, Clinton says: "I hope the Republican leadership will support the maintenance of this funding, to provide the resources necessary to properly protect our borders."

 

[dory36]

Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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