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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 12:26 PM   #81
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by LEX
When Homeland security does the post mortem of a serious terrorist event and finds the WMD (Biologic or radiological source material) came up through Mexico, the border might become a military issue and securing it an issue with momentum.* Until then expect the Democrats to harvest the Alien votes through fraudulent voter registration and welfare paybacks,* and the Republicans to harvest the cheap labor in exchange for their Agricultural and Construction PAC funding.


Bingo.

More proof (as if any was needed) that great minds think alike!

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Old 07-04-2005, 12:47 PM   #82
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...taxes paid and Government spending do not account for seemingly intangible monetary benefits that illegal immigrants may bring to residents/citizens by way of lower commodity prices. While this may seem small comfort for critics of illegal immigrants, understanding the reasons why illegal immigrants lower costs for consumers reveals why they end up being disproportionate burdens on local and state governments. One of the books that partly covers this issue is Eric Schlosser's superlative tome (if you will) Fast Food Nation, which is one of the eRiposte Recommended Books.

A fact often ignored by critics of illegal immigrants is that illegal immigrants come to this country because there is history of people - usually corporations (including agribusinesses) - hiring them. I am willing to bet that the supply of illegal immigrants into the U.S. would abate significantly (of course it won't disappear entirely) if they were not really needed and used. Expressed in another way, it is a matter of supply and demand. There will be little in the way of supply if real demand did not exist.*

Clearly, if one believes that illegal immigration has to be stopped, merely penalizing those who enter the country illegally will not solve the problem - penalizing those who hire them all the time (mostly businesses/companies) is also a must. This is not simply a matter of punishing companies/businesses for committing an illegal act. Rather, it has more to do with the fact that such companies boost their profit margins by paying illegal immigrants egregiously low salaries with limited or no benefits, thereby forcing the state or local governments to bear much of the costs of living (including education) of the immigrants and their families. As Schlosser points out in his book, some of these (e.g., meatpacking) companies have been brazen enough in the past that they assume that the localities that these immigrants are brought into for work will automatically cover their welfare costs. This is obviously problematic for several reasons, that go well beyond the illegal immigration debate.

If a worker is paid a pittance and yet expected to work with minimal or no healthcare benefits, whose responsibility is it to ensure the worker remains in good enough health to continue working? If the worker's pay is insufficient to pay enough in local/state taxes to support the education of his or her child(ren), whose responsibility is it to ensure that the families of the kids get educated and turn into tax-paying, productive workers that benefit the country in the future? If the living conditions of the worker are below par and he or she is forced to consider crime as a way to meet their basic food or health needs, then who is responsible for preventing or reducing this tendency and to minimize crime? Now, I certainly concede that illegal immigrants come to the U.S. at their own risk/peril and should therefore have no RIGHT to expect a JOB, let alone decent pay or benefits. But, at the same time, even if you ignore the unfairness in the way the illegal immigrant is treated by his or her employer, it would be foolish and irresponsible for legal residents/citizens to ignore the unfairness that this treatment inflicts on *themselves*. "How?", you ask. If the answer is not obvious from the above comments, I will explain it again.*

When companies employ, but refuse to pay decent wages to, illegal immigrants, this is a multiple-whammy to legal residents and citizens.

(i) They have less jobs available as a result.

(ii) Companies are able to depress wages overall, reducing the bargaining power of legal employees - thereby gradually lowering the latter's quality of life.

(iii) By paying illegal immigrants poor wages, they create a poor quality of life for illegal immigrants. This has cascading effects. Local/State Governments may be forced to pay for the welfare or education (usually the latter dominates) of the immigrants' families using taxpayer funds that are disproportionately from legal residents/citizens. In cases where the illegal immigrants' localities are subject to high crime driven by sheer poverty, the State Government is also forced to use taxpayer money (disproportionately from legal residents/citizens) to build more prisons.

All of the above just because some corporate executives or business owners can reap in the big bucks and because the consumer may see somewhat lower costs (assuming the consumer still has his or her job). Get the picture?
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Netting it out...
Old 07-04-2005, 12:54 PM   #83
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Netting it out...

... and my reference, if anyone cares to do the reading...


Depending on the level of education and the age of immigrants when they enter the country, the study says, the cycle works like this: State and local governments foot the bill early in an immigrant's life.

But as immigrants leave school and become productive workers, they repay most or all of the cost of those services in the form of taxes. However, that payoff does not always go to the same state or town that paid to educate them.

Education is a critical factor in how productive immigrants become as taxpaying adults.
An immigrant with less than a high school education costs the economy about $13,000 over his life span, the study says. But immigrants with more than a high school education produce a net gain of about $198,000.

"Most studies see only the cost of education, they don't see the return,"

...

Given the estimates mentioned above, it is not unreasonable to surmise that illegal immigrants (who are typically employed as low-wage, unskilled labor, and who typically have a higher probability of being under-educated) - either considered in isolation or along with non-adult children, likely represent a net fiscal cost to the country.

At the same time, the one dominating cost they impose is on education budgets, and this is the only investment on the immigrants families that has a high probability of producing a good return to the country over the lifetime of the immigrant's children and/or their descendants.

From this, I draw the following qualitative inference: as long as illegal immigration persists, and such immigrants are allowed to remain in the country (with possible medical aid), denying them the ability to send their children to public schools is likely to increase the net cost to the country, rather than the other way around.

http://www.eriposte.com/civil_rights...on.htm#FISCAL2
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Old 07-04-2005, 01:07 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
Get the picture?[/b]
Yup.

Let's close the borders to ILLEGAL immigration, subject employers who hire undocumented workers to draconian punishment, arrange for the correct number of LEGAL immigrants to do the work we need done in exchange for fair wages and benefits, and live happily ever after. What a concept.

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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 01:08 PM   #85
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Ah, this thread has taken a decided turn for the better.

Lex and I have tangled a bit (in a civilized manner, of course) on this issue before, but I think we all recognize there is a problem here.

As long as there is demand, supply will find a way to reach it. Both political parties are too busy currying favor with the fastest growing voting block to risk antagonizing the Latino vote, and both are happy to take the contributions of large businesses that benefit from cheap illeagal labor.

Caroline is correct, we aren't seeing the real cost of those 20 dollar shoes or those 99 cents a pound fruits. Until we squash big businesses (demand) for foisting their workers social safety net costs on the taxpayer we won't ebb the flow of illeagal migrants (supply). No amount of machine gun nests on the border will halt it, what with only 1% of shipping vessels in ports being searched as we speak.

Will things change? I don't think so. We are giving hundreds of millions in subsidies to loggers to cut down trees in Alaska's national parks because othewise they can't make money doing it, and we have prohibitive tarrifs on sugar to help Florida sugar growers who line politicians pockets, making just about everything we eat more expensive. Death by a thousand paper cuts.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 01:28 PM   #86
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Will things change?*
No, as Lex said, it will take another major terrorist attack before we enforce our borders. Hillary is the only pol making noises about enforcing our borders, and if I trusted her as far as I could throw her, I'd hold my nose and vote for her in '08... despite being a card-carrying Clinton-hater from way back when. I think the pol who convinces the public that s/he WILL, in fact, indeed, close our borders to ILLEGAL immigration will be the next POTUS. Opinion polls register this issue as the #1 off-the-hook, unifying issue of 'mericans of all political stripes.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 01:31 PM   #87
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by Art
No, as Lex said, it will take another major terrorist attack before we enforce our borders. Hillary is the only pol making noises about enforcing our borders, and if I trusted her as far as I could throw her, I'd hold my nose and vote for her in '08... despite being a card-carrying Clinton-hater from way back when. I think the pol who convinces the public that s/he WILL, in fact, indeed, close our borders to ILLEGAL immigration will be the next POTUS. Opinion polls register this issue as the #1 off-the-hook, unifying issue of* 'mericans of all political stripes.
Second Amendment/gun ownership is my No. One issue, but immigration
(legal and illegal) could be a close second.

JG
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 01:36 PM   #88
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

If I thought that the Second Ammendment was in peril, I'd agree with you. I don't see anything to worry about there- for now.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 01:41 PM   #89
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by Art
If I thought that the Second Ammendment was in peril, I'd agree with you. I don't see anything to worry about there- for now.
That's the key............ "for now". Without the NRA's constant pressure
we would be in deep doo-doo, Second Amendment-wise.
Actually the Bill of Rights is under attack from all sides, but that is
a subject for another diatribe

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Old 07-04-2005, 01:50 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline

All of the above just because some corporate executives or business owners can reap in the big bucks and because the consumer may see somewhat lower costs (assuming the consumer still has his or her job). Get the picture?
This is mostly BS (respectfully I submit). However, as long as the government can't/won't stop the flood of illegals, I see no problem
with executives and businesses making "big bucks". Looks like free enterprise to me.

JG
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 01:52 PM   #91
 
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Wouldn't it be refreshing if the immigration rant and rail crowd would just be upfront and admit that it is darker skinned immigrants that really stick in their craw.* I have a hard time envisioning the eye-bulging passion if, say, Norwegians or god forbid Frenchmen were lashing together rafts and paddling towards our glittering shores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
Second Amendment/gun ownership is my No. One issue, but immigration
(legal and illegal) could be a close second.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 01:56 PM   #92
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by tozz
Wouldn't it be refreshing if the immigration rant and rail crowd would just be upfront and admit that it is darker skinned immigrants that really stick in their craw.* I have a hard time envisioning the eye-bulging passion if, say, Norwegians or god forbid Frenchmen were lashing together rafts and paddling towards our glittering shores.
How is this for "upfront"? I don't care about race, color, creed,
sexual orientation, occupation, gender, or anything else.
Just keep them the hell out and deport the rest. End of rant!

Hey, is this the thread I promised to leave alone? If so, my apologies.
One of you got me stirred up I guess

JG
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 01:59 PM   #93
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by Art


Bingo.

More proof (as if any was needed) that great minds think alike!*

Double mega dittos! That was a good one.

JG
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 02:02 PM   #94
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by Art
Actually REW, this is an Early Retirement website whose members are, for the most part, politically liberal.

And if you want my sources to verify that, just read the posts.
And if you want the opposing view (plus some nonsense), read mine.

Disclaimer: It will take you a while.

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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 02:03 PM   #95
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
How is this for "upfront"?* I don't care about race, color, creed,
sexual orientation, occupation, gender, or anything else.
Just keep them the hell out and deport the rest.* End of rant!

Hey, is this the thread I promised to leave alone?* If so, my apologies.
One of you got me stirred up I guess*

JG
You a native American, JG?
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 02:06 PM   #96
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

I disagree with you, JG.

Lawbreaking employers who hire illegals must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. *Why should they be above the law? I don't understand your thinking here.

Moreover, these laws and penalties must be toughened up so that offenders who get busted suffer punishments that cause them to cry tears of blood.

This is not mutually exclusive with the idea of border control- it's part of the package.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 02:10 PM   #97
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tozz
Wouldn't it be refreshing if the immigration rant and rail crowd would just be upfront and admit that it is darker skinned immigrants that really stick in their craw.*
Congrats to TOZZ for the first accusation of racism since I foreswore ad hominem attacks mid-thread! Attaboy!
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 02:13 PM   #98
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by Have Funds, Will Retire
You a native American, JG?
You're point being... ?
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 02:14 PM   #99
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by tozz
I have a hard time envisioning the eye-bulging passion if, say, Norwegians or god forbid Frenchmen were lashing together rafts and paddling towards our glittering shores.
And heaven help us if norwegians were lashing together frenchmen and coming overseas on their backs.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-04-2005, 02:15 PM   #100
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

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Originally Posted by Notth
And heaven help us if norwegians were lashing together frenchmen and coming overseas on their backs.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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