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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 11:41 AM   #141
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Didn't the 9/11 attackers have legal visas?* How would a Berlin wall along the Mexican border help?
Didn't Mexico just arrest two Al-Queda suspects near the border within the last week or so, Laurence? We're supposed to depend on Mexico to protect us?
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 11:42 AM   #142
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemick2
The people who have a day job in the trenches - have not forgotten 9/11 and are working as hard as they can to apply 'lessons learned' and get up the learning curve.
I think many of those folks in the trenches smelled a rat, but couldn't get their bosses to pay attention... *
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 11:43 AM   #143
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Ok Art, unless I'm mistaken you now have no credibility whatsoever with anyone anywhere.

You STILL avoid the question about how you measure the 'problem' and therefore determine its importance.

The list I provided came from a speech a leading doctor and health care advocate gave. There is no real redundancy unless you wish to split hairs. There are tons of actual measurable data to support every single point, and non of it from anti-immigration groups.

Nobody ever said your 'nazi' reference came from a healthcare debate. Nords pointed out that trolls frequently bring up nazi's and you said you never made a nazi reference. Yet you did. Twice.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 11:48 AM   #144
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie
your repeated references
to illegal immigrants as "brown" people seems off base.* Perhaps
it is just me, but I find those references a little offensive .

Cheers,

Charlie
Charlie, th consistently uses these terms to make sneering accusations of racism against anyone he disagrees with. It is because of this disgusting habit of his that I have, in the past, sunk to his level and responded with ad hominem (personal attacks, th) against him.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 11:50 AM   #145
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
I agree with most the above as part of the total package- but health care workers in this country WILL NOT (nor should they be forced to) check on patients' resident status when seriously sick/injured people are admitted to ER/trauma centers. The American people wouldn't tolerate it either. Nor would they tolerate a resuscitated kid and his illegal parents turned over by medical people to the INS. *

And as for the idea that we have no idea of the health care costs of illegal aliens from reputable sources, AGAIN I'll re-post just one reference that I've already posted (there's a LOT more that I've already posted from racist, tabloid sources like the American Medical Association, etc. for those with an open mind. Google has SO much more (MANY gov. reports in pdf for anyone who cares):

"By default, *—Madeleine Peiner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq. “Illegal Aliens and American Medicine,” Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, Spring 2005

Yes, I know, she's a lying racist, and this publication is a tabloid.


Why not, security is called on any patient who is clearly breaking the law? *How would the American people know...and hospitals only care that they get paid.

As a practicing physician (for your benefit Art...born, educated, trained in the US), have no delusions that the AMA is a huge interest group. *Yeah they lobby on behalf of my paycheck, but they're lobbyists nonetheless, and as a whole they've been trained in statistics. *And we all know what you can do with statistics.

As far as the 80% approx = end of life/last few months of life, my general gestalt feeling, very "non-scientific", is spot on. Actually we banter around the figure 90% in table talk, but physicians can sometimes be dramatic. *Ask any practicing physician...
PhD M. Cosman doesn't practice medicine. *My guess would be she sits at a computer all day writing articles to procure more grants or to justify her white-tower job. *Don't know or care if she's racist, although her Journal is clearly not directed toward practicing physicians or surgeons. *Although I've never heard of it, journals read/of import are published weekly, at the most monthly...not seasonally.

The analogy that jumps into mind ..your municipal waste engineer, the garbageman in coveralls, who picks up the weekly trash would have a good pulse of the local garbage situation. *Don't need some statistics from the councilman desiring reelection..
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 11:53 AM   #146
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Right...like how you called a lot of people, myself included, morally retarded before anyone ever attacked you or even said anything bad about you Art?

Revisionist history only works when you dont have an audit trail...

You claimed I think all people against immigration or illegal aliens is racist. Actually not what I said. I said that people who come up with 'problems' to rail about, like illegal aliens health care costs, in my experience, have been racist. Simply because there is no credible data to suggest theres a problem that would make someone want to get concerned about it, at least not vs other problems with health care. Its usually a "I dont like xxx people, where can I find someone who can tell me lots of good reasons that I can use so I dont feel so bad about being racist".

And there ya go...
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 11:57 AM   #147
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by P.S.
As far as the 80% approx = end of life/last few months of life, my general gestalt feeling, very "non-scientific", is spot on. Actually we banter around the figure 90% in table talk, but physicians can sometimes be dramatic. Ask any practicing physician...
Thanks for the real info from the trenches PS. I'm aware that the '80/20' rule is well known in the medical and insurance communities. Although most of what I've seen extends the time period to a year, not just a few months, which does give some additional leeway.

Re: the drama...well...whatta ya expect after they watch all those medical shows on tv where the doctors carry guns and take down bad guys?
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:01 PM   #148
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth


You STILL avoid the question about how you measure the 'problem' and therefore determine its importance.

So you're saying that groups like the AMA and other health care organizations that have published reports such as the one I've quoted are making up these numbers?

The estimates of millions of illegal aliens in this country are false?

There is no way to quantify this problem at all?

I didn't do the research- but I trust that the AMA and organizations of similar reputation have some idea of what they're talking about- MUCH more so than your unnamed "leading physician" quoted above.

You can't be trusted to differentiate between a group that is anti-ILLEGAL immigration vs. a group that is (according to your lie) anti-immigration.

You lie about these "tiny" details all the time.

You give false references constantly.

You accuse anyone who opposes illegal immigration of racism.

You have zero credibility.

But you are amusing.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:08 PM   #149
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
So you're saying that groups like the AMA and other health care organizations that have published reports such as the one I've quoted are making up these numbers?
You never showed an AMA report with statistics that demonstrated how they gather them. Period.
Quote:
The estimates of millions of illegal aliens in this country are false?
Absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. You claim that illegal aliens using health care and not paying for it are a major, if not the most, important cost issue with health care today. There is no quantified data to support that it even makes the top 5, let alone the top 10.

Quote:
There is no way to quantify this problem at all?
Not that I'm aware of. Since nobody says "I'm an illegal alien" when they receive healthcare without insurance and then dont pay for it, I am all ears as to how you'd measure it in any meaningful manner.

Quote:
I didn't do the research
That is painfully obvious.

Quote:
but I trust that the AMA and organizations of similar reputation
I'm sure you do frequently and blindly trust lobbyist groups and organizations with an agenda.

Quote:
MUCH more so than your unnamed "leading physician" quoted above.
So you dont even know who I quoted, but you're sure they dont have credibility? Another zero information decision? About right...

Quote:
You lie about these "tiny" details all the time.
Name one.

Quote:
You give false references constantly.
Name one.

Quote:
You accuse anyone who opposes illegal immigration of racism.
I'll say it a third time. I do not say that anyone who opposes illegal immigration is racist. I said people who grasp at invalid statistics to say that immigration is 'bad' frequently turns out to have a racist tendency.

Quote:
You have zero credibility.
Coming from your bizarro world Art, I'll take that as a compliment.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:11 PM   #150
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Here is one way to integrate the issue of Illegal Immigration and ER: *Sponsor an illegal alien (or several) with some skill sets, and run an add in the local paper say for yard work, trash haulage, or other low skilled manual labor (Manuel Labor?) at 10 bucks per hour, and pay the Alien 7 bucks cash, no taxes, no problemos . The 3 bucks covers your 'overhead". Say you run three illegals at 8 hours a day, you net $72.* This could earn you $360/week, or $1,440/month.* What ER wouldn't like a few extra bucks to spend on things like property taxes, health care insurance, and other fixed costs that would otherwise pose a challenge to the state of ER?* *The Illegal can't report you to the Dept of Labor wage and hour office without being subject to the risk of being deported. *Workers comp? "no es importante, patron". *

You are now in the day labor services business. *You arrange for each of your "employees' to show up for the work, and you handle the direct customer contact under your labor arrangement. *Sure you are aiding and abeting a violation of a federal statute (or several) but its really no downside risk to you, since there is no law enforcement despite this being "technically illegal". * This can help both the ER and the Alien prosper. *The ER can have a side business for much needed cash while at least making a few bucks from this unstoppable demographic trend *Any of us could do this. Profit from GLOBAL FREE TRADE through your own home based business.*8) *
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:11 PM   #151
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by P.S.
Why not, security is called on any patient who is clearly breaking the law? *How would the American people know...and hospitals only care that they get paid.
Doc, with all due respect, in cities like San Francisco, L.A., and probably other major "sanctuary" cities... it is impossible to get local POLICE to cooperate with the INS.

I find it very hard to believe that most health care workers would report suspected illegal aliens to the INS, although it would be fine with me if they did.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:26 PM   #152
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

JAMA (an actual source) says that admittance staff has no problem with reporting illegals. In fact, the billion dollars the federal government is giving to hospitals to offset costs of illegal aliens (You know Art, the billion bucks you said didnt exist?) has some language attached that says that they SHOULD at least ask so they can show they're spending the feds money on actual illegals.

The comments about local police and INS cooperation is anecdotal at best. If I found out my local police chief was telling their cops not to report dangerous illegal alien gang members to the INS I'd see that we got a new police chief. If the 'xyz community' objected to kicking these folks out of the country, I'd be having a chat with them as well...
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:31 PM   #153
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

By the way, neither JAMA and the Stanford school of medicine, a couple of real hack outfits, list ANY articles or papers on the illegal immigrant menace to healthcare in their rather vast databases of papers.

Wonder why...
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:40 PM   #154
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notth
In fact, the billion dollars the federal government is giving to hospitals to offset costs of illegal aliens (You know Art, the billion bucks you said didnt exist?)
Another deliberate lie by th. That $1B announcement came out right at the time of my initial post, and I acknowledged it.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:44 PM   #155
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!



http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:46 PM   #156
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

KCBS | cbs2.com
Health Care For Illegals Cost County $350 Million
Officials Say Funds Might Have Staved Off Cuts, Closures
May 12, 2003 1:14 pm US/Pacific

The county spent about $350 million last year providing health care to illegal immigrants, the Department of Health Services said.

Massive health cuts, including the closure of 16 health clinics and possibly two hospitals, as well as slashes in services, could have been avoided if that money was available for other uses, officials said.

The Board of Supervisors votes Tuesday on a plan to create a work permit for Mexicans wanting to come to the county for a certain period of time for a certain job. The law would require would-be employers to put up an insurance bond for each worker to guarantee they would pay the cost of any needed health care services.

The proposal would also need congressional approval.

"Illegal immigrants have impacted our county taxpayers," Supervisor Michael Antonovich said. "We have a $350 million debt as a result of these people receiving medical treatment illegally."

Antonovich said there are also plans to eliminate all non-emergency services to people who don't live in the county.

Immigration attorney Margherita Underhill said she understands the county's concerns, but she's not convinced the work permit is the answer. It doesn't appear to address a large percentage who end up working for themselves, she said.

"We need to consider the self-employed, which are a majority of the illegals," Underhill said. "These are the people who are selling oranges on the street, that mow our lawns, that take clean our houses and take care of our elderly."

County health officials said they are not allowed to ask patients about their citizenship status. Rather, they estimated the amount of money spent on illegal immigrants last year using a formula based on how many illegals they believe live in the county and how many doctor and hospital visits were not reimbursed.

"We also looked at the number of people who have been denied medical benefits," health department spokesman John Wallace said. "We get them signed up for medical benefits, but a certain number got rejected because they had no proof of citizenship."
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:48 PM   #157
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Bill limiting health care to illegal aliens rejected
Legislation would have required hospitals to obtain residency status

The Associated Press
Updated: 4:10 p.m. ET May 18, 2004


WASHINGTON - The House rejected legislation that could have led to hospital emergency rooms denying some services to illegal aliens while helping to get them kicked out of the country.

Hispanic legislators led opposition to the bill, joining medical groups in contending that it would turn hospitals into law enforcement agencies and prevent illegal residents from seeking life-saving medical treatment.

It was defeated 331-88.

The legislation came to the House floor as a result of a promise that GOP leaders made to Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., in exchange for his vote on the Medicare prescription drug bill that narrowly passed last November.

Rohrabacher was ready to vote against the Medicare bill because it contained $1 billion over four years to reimburse hospitals for treating illegal immigrants. The Orange County conservative was told he could offer legislation to counter the effects of that provision.

Rohrabacher’s bill would have required hospitals receiving money under the provision to obtain information on the immigration status and employer of people seeking emergency treatment. That information would have been sent into a database set up jointly by the departments of Homeland Security and Health and Human Services.

The Homeland Security Department would have been required to initiate deportation proceedings against illegal aliens.

Employers would be responsible for costs
In addition, employers of illegal aliens would have been responsible for the cost of unreimbursed emergency room care, and hospitals would not have had to provide care for an illegal alien who could safely be sent back to his or her own country for treatment.

Rohrabacher said health care for illegals has extended to heart bypasses, transplants and cancer treatment costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. Those opposed to his bill, he said, “are voting to spend our limited health care money to make America the HMO of the world. And then they act surprised when even more tens of millions of illegals flood into our country.”

But Hilda Solis, D-Calif., said the bill would turn hospitals into law enforcement and immigration agents, and would have lead to scenarios where women in labor would have to choose between going to a hospital and being deported. “What kind of fear does that place in a community?” she asked.

Rep. Robert Menendez of New Jersey, the House’s no. 3 Democrat, envisioned being asked to prove his citizenship in an emergency room because of his name. “That’s shameful. You wouldn’t ask any other citizen that,” he said.

The Federation of American Hospitals, American Hospital Association and other medical groups wrote lawmakers urging opposition to the bill, saying it “would virtually ensure that illegal immigrants will avoid getting the appropriate and timely lifesaving health care they need, when they need it.”

Rohrabacher said illegal aliens make up 43 percent of those without health insurance, and thus account for at least $9 billion of the $21 billion that hospitals reported in uncompensated health services last year. The office of Sen. Jon Kyl., R-Ariz., who was behind the $1 billion in the Medicare bill, put the annual cost of treating undocumented residents at about $1.45 billion.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:48 PM   #158
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
Another deliberate lie by th. That $1B announcement came out right at the time of my initial post, and I acknowledged it.
GOLLLLY ART! Bush signed the law and it was widely publicized on MAY 10, 2005. Its July 5th. You made that post on June 18th. So you're really hot about this topic, but fail to notice broad headlines and press coverage on the matter for a month and a half?

or is a month and a half period something that "just happened"?

More revisionist history Art? Again, its just not feasible when theres an audit trail.

Also, hasnt Dory told you a couple of times now about posting copywrited material? He's liable for that you know...
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 12:54 PM   #159
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

APOLOGY TO DORY:

Sorry about that. Won't happen again.
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!
Old 07-05-2005, 01:02 PM   #160
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Re: Numbnuts thinks ILLEGAL aliens are good for us!

You might replace the text with a simple link, as several people have suggested.

Or not bother since nothing you posted explains how they measure the health care costs of illegal aliens.

But I'll tell you. Estimate the number of illegal aliens in a region. Estimate the number of people who go into a hospital, how many were uninsured, and use the illegal ratio to guess. Absolutely unscientific and irrelevant.

A group of prominent scientists from every major institute in the world took measurements of president bush 3000 times in 5 years. At every measurement, they found him to be both alive and president. Based on this assessment, president bush has been determined to be immortal, and he will always be president.
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