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"Arizona seizes spotlight in U.S. Immigration Debate"
Old 02-01-2008, 11:45 AM   #1
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"Arizona seizes spotlight in U.S. Immigration Debate"

Arizona has passed legislation that makes it a crime for a business to hire someone from the large pool of an estimated twelve million illegals now living in our country. It seems that states are now having to do the job that the federal government has failed to do. In 2007, forty-six states passed 1,500 pieces of legislation in hopes of finding remedies for illegal entry into our great nation. Two hundred forty-four of these actually became law. Arizona has the stiffest penalty for hiring an illegal, in that a business can lose their license if convicted of breaking the new law. Many illegals are now hiding in their homes or leaving Arizona for refuge in other states. I believe that the diversity that we now enjoy in our country is due to the richness of the many different cultures that successfully exist side by side. I am thankful for all of the contributions that have been made by legal immigants. However, I have a problem with someone who chooses not to folllow the proper channels to cross our borders. For one thing, they are making a mockery of honest people who obtain a passport when they visit the U.S. or obey our laws in seeking citizenship. How come Washington cannot do its job of protecting our borders from people who refuse to follow the proper procedures to work in our coutry temporarily or to earn American Citizenship?

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Old 02-01-2008, 12:14 PM   #2
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"How come Washington cannot do its job of protecting our borders from people who refuse to follow the proper procedures to work in our coutry temporarily or to earn American Citizenship?"

Good question. Too busy fighting amongst themselves. Frankly its starting to piss me off with all the partisanship.

Wish a decent independent would come along.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:39 PM   #3
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Many illegals are now hiding in their homes or leaving Arizona for refuge in other states.

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No need to flee to Missouri.
Although the actions here have not been as high profile as in AZ, the welcome mat has been tossed, if it ever existed.
Lots of busts and new powers to the police.
Something most of us knew all along is that many of the illegals busted at the workplace prove to be working with stolen ID and have committed other offenses.
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Old 02-01-2008, 05:13 PM   #4
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Arizona has passed legislation that makes it a crime for a business to hire someone from the large pool of an estimated twelve million illegals now living in our country. It seems that states are now having to do the job that the federal government has failed to do. In 2007, forty-six states passed 1,500 pieces of legislation in hopes of finding remedies for illegal entry into our great nation. Two hundred forty-four of these actually became law. Arizona has the stiffest penalty for hiring an illegal, in that a business can lose their license if convicted of breaking the new law. Many illegals are now hiding in their homes or leaving Arizona for refuge in other states. I believe that the diversity that we now enjoy in our country is due to the richness of the many different cultures that successfully exist side by side. I am thankful for all of the contributions that have been made by legal immigants. However, I have a problem with someone who chooses not to folllow the proper channels to cross our borders. For one thing, they are making a mockery of honest people who obtain a passport when they visit the U.S. or obey our laws in seeking citizenship. How come Washington cannot do its job of protecting our borders from people who refuse to follow the proper procedures to work in our coutry temporarily or to earn American Citizenship?

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The answer is that it is not -po·lit·i·cal·ly correct. If the current adminstration and the past administrations were really concerned about national security their first pri·or·i·ty would have and would be to secure all of our borders, our airports, our seaports, etc..., etc.....

As for what to do with all the individuals that are here illegally that is hard to answer. I would hope that whatever decision or decisions are reached that they would be fair and just, and that they would show some compassion.

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Old 02-01-2008, 06:51 PM   #5
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The answer is that it is not -po·lit·i·cal·ly correct. If the current adminstration and the past administrations were really concerned about national security their first pri·or·i·ty would have and would be to secure all of our borders, our airports, our seaports, etc..., etc.....

As for what to do with all the individuals that are here illegally that is hard to answer. I would hope that whatever decision or decisions are reached that they would be fair and just, and that they would show some compassion.

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Well Wags we agree on the securing part.
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Old 02-01-2008, 07:34 PM   #6
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Be careful what you wish for

Riverside NJ. One of the first cities to implement business sanctions and rental housing sanctions

One year later. The immigrants moved out and brought the city to it's knees.

MATT Video -

I believe they bring a richness to my life and my community. They do jobs that Americans can not and will not do.

And they support my SS payment
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:02 PM   #7
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Be careful what you wish for

Riverside NJ. One of the first cities to implement business sanctions and rental housing sanctions

One year later. The immigrants moved out and brought the city to it's knees.

MATT Video -

I believe they bring a richness to my life and my community. They do jobs that Americans can not and will not do.

And they support my SS payment
Great Post!

When I was in NJ the issue of illegal immigrants was a big deal and some of the towns had passed laws to prohibit the areas where these individuals could be picked up (by potential employers) to go to work. Before I left some of the towns were feeling and experiencing some of the effects that were described in the video.

I live in West Texas and some of the farms and ranches would not be able to survive without the manpower that some of these individuals provide. As far as crime we have very little if any problems with the illegal immigrants. I find most of some to be pleasant and hardworking.

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Old 02-01-2008, 08:32 PM   #8
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As far as crime we have very little if any problems with the illegal immigrants.
I think you mean these criminals aren't committing many additional crimes, right?

Wait unit one of your illegal good neighbors T-bones your car in an intersection. Do you think he'll have insurance? Do you think he'll stick around until the police get there? This is okay with you?

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I find most of some to be pleasant and hardworking.
If "most of some" are pleasant and hard working, are most of the rest unpleasant and slothful?

I am always a little surprised when someone who claims to want to help poorer Americans sees no conflict with tolerating the presence of 12+ million illegal aliens to drive down wages at the lower end of the spectrum. I guess "helping poor Americans" can only be done with tax money, not through earned income.

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Old 02-02-2008, 08:59 AM   #9
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If it's Mr. Bloomberg he is some of the same...we need a party of the disgusted to run..they'll have my vote...



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Originally Posted by Notmuchlonger View Post
"How come Washington cannot do its job of protecting our borders from people who refuse to follow the proper procedures to work in our coutry temporarily or to earn American Citizenship?"

Good question. Too busy fighting amongst themselves. Frankly its starting to piss me off with all the partisanship.

Wish a decent independent would come along.
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:03 AM   #10
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Washington Post article- Immigration Battle Divides Ariz. GOP
Immigration Battle Divides Ariz. GOP

Excerpts from the article

Haney, probably the most vociferous of McCain's critics, patrolled the hallway wearing a little button on his lapel that read "McCain 2008" and had a slash through it. He agreed that Goldwater today wouldn't get his vote: "He's pro-abortion, pro-homosexual agenda," Haney said. And he says he sees little difference between McCain and Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton on the immigration issue. "He's for open borders. He's for amnesty. Hillary's for amnesty."

Nearby sat a man wearing a McCain button -- no slash. Horst Kraus, 77, said he immigrated from Germany in 1960. He owns a nudist camp in Arizona (and says the conservative Republicans outnumber everyone else by 2 to 1). The immigration rhetoric scares him.
"I see 1938 all over again," Kraus said. "Back then it was 'Jews, raus' " -- Jews, out.
"Now it's 'Mexicans, out,' " he said. "I am very disturbed by it."

On Bell Road, that fear is shared by the many Hispanics who work or shop at the car lots, pawnshops, liquor stores, furniture stores and check-cashing operations that line the highway, one of the main drags in North Phoenix.
"It's scary," says Mary Torres, 39, who works at a thrift shop.
"There's a hatred for rising Hispanic communities in Arizona. They don't want little L.A.'s in Arizona," says co-worker Barbara Gutierrez, 40.
"A lot of people are going to other states. Even Canada," Torres said.

End of excerpts.

Yes, the illegal immigrants are here illegally, but that does not mean that we should treat all individuals with brown skin different or with disdain. You do remember what happen after 9/11 and even what is happening now in how some in America treat and stereotype individuals who appear to be middle eastern or who appear to be Arab.

As for having an accident and the driver of the vehicle not having insurance, just last week a neighbor of ours was in an accident and guess what the other driver who was American born did not have auto insurance and did not have a valid driver's li·cense .

Crimes in America are committed by both Americans and illegal immigrants.

Last time I checked the illegal immigrants are not the ones who make laws on the min·i·mum wag·e. I believe that responsibility falls directly on members of Congress and it requires the signature of the President for it to become a law.

This adminstration and past adminstrations are the one's that have failed to secure the borders and to enforce current laws on immgration.

SECURE the borders. As for what to do with all the individuals that are here illegally that is hard to answer. I would hope that whatever decision or decisions are reached that they would be fair and just, and that they would show some compassion.

GOD BLESS US ALL
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:54 AM   #11
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People definitely need to be careful what the wish for.

I live in a state surrounded by the ultimate fence, 2500 miles of water is pretty good deterent to illegal immigrants. By and large you can't get to the place without showing two federal agents ID and having your name run through a computerized database to weed out illegals.

Hawaii has lots of immigrants but not many illegals. However, cleaning up the illegals has NOT been a cure all. We still have crime, drugs, and plenty of people who drive without insurance, just like the mainland.

What we don't have is people willing to take minimum wage for work, or many people to do hard physically demanding jobs agriculture, construction etc. The last several years Hawaii unemployment rate has been below 3%. Their are a couple of consquences of this. First of all it is virtually impossible to find workers for entry level jobs. 18 months ago a profitable Basket Robbin at strip mall near my house had to shut its doors because the couple who owned several B&Rs couldn't find workers. They tried all kinds of approaches but eventually after working 80 hour weeks they just gave up. It wasn't just them, in the entire strip mall all of which had help wanted signs offering $8-$10 for entry position, there were a total of three applications for all of the stores in strip mall in one month period. On the Big Island the local Pizza hut was having to fly assistant managers from Oahu each day to keep the place open.

As for getting contractors well that was a joke a year was standard waiting period, similar problems with domestic help. Things are bit better now that unemployment has sky rocketed to 3.2%

For more troubling to me than the problems of fast food owners, or having trouble hiring casual labors is the problem of agriculture. Hawaii has one of the best places on earth to grow things. In fact much of the seed corn in the US is grown here because like ADM and Monsanto can grow 5 or 6 crops of corn and speeds up the R&D cycle. I can plant stuff 365 days years, and almost never need to worry about watering, freezing etc.

However, virtually all of the food in the state is brought in the from the mainland, partly due to high land cost, but primarily due to the high cost of labor.

The US has a tremendous competitive advantage when comes to agriculture. We are blessed with a temperate climate, great soil, and huge technology advantage vs every other country. I have no problems with an emphasis on securing on are borders, but we need to recognize that this country has a need for low cost labor. Whether this a guest worker program or more liberalized legal immigrantion laws I am not sure.

But it take from me if you think depending on foreign oil is a unsettling, try being dependent on foreign food.
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Old 02-03-2008, 10:18 AM   #12
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First of all it is virtually impossible to find workers for entry level jobs.
It's tough for adults to earn a subsistence wage around here (especially after taxes) but if you have a construction license you can work as much as you want. I could run a full-time handyman business just by word of mouth.

One of the reasons we do so much of our own home improvement is that it's less hassle to learn how to do for ourselves than it is to find a contractor-- especially a licensed one! Even if we screw up the materials once or twice we're still ahead on the labor costs.

Our kid, at the age of 15, is regularly offered internships with local architecture & construction businesses through the high school's counselors. (She can do math and operate drafting equipment.) She's been employed since the minute she turned age 14 at a Kumon franchise, starting at $6.75/hour and quickly getting raised to $8.50/hour for 6-10 hours/week. As soon as she turns 16 (child labor laws) she's welcome to ramp that up to their full weekly schedule. When we parents expressed our surprise to the franchise owner, she said "You guys don't understand how hard it is to find workers like her." When she gets her black belt, her taekwondo instructor is happy to put her on the payroll part-time or up to five afternoons/evenings a week.

The high school's construction classes (and some business/healthcare classes) are sponsored by a local community college for credit, and the teens can even operate heavy equipment (under instruction) during summer school. (They helped build themselves a new classroom extension-- including the plumbing & wiring.) Union apprenticeship programs begin at age 16 (junior year) and Pearl Harbor Shipyard is begging for entry-level employees. (If you can count fractions by sixteenths of an inch in pidgin, you're hired!) The local branch of Heald College gets huge sponsorship from Schlumberger and other major technical employers.

I don't think our kid will ever wear a fast-food hairnet. While some teachers & coaches express concern about her choosing to work (instead of volunteering for the science fair or the varsity bball team), she gets a tremendous boost of self-respect and supervisory love from her job. She could treat herself to an iPhone, a Wii, and a heck of a Starbucks habit, but she's also run the compounding spreadsheet on what happens when you start your IRA on your 14th birthday.

She's also learning a lot about organization and time management. Best of all, it's self-imposed with us being coaches & mentors instead of parental naggers. If her grades start sagging, she knows she'll get cut back on her work hours.

And tutoring four-year-old kids on Kumon math & reading has given her a realistic parenting perspective that she'll hopefully keep in mind during her dating activities...
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:17 PM   #13
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It wasn't just them, in the entire strip mall all of which had help wanted signs offering $8-$10 for entry position, there were a total of three applications for all of the stores in strip mall in one month period. On the Big Island the local Pizza hut was having to fly assistant managers from Oahu each day to keep the place open.
Sigh. Can a person support themselves on $10/hour? In Hawaii, probably not. They'd be hard put to own and maintain a car. So if they want workers they're going to have to pay what workers are worth in that environment. When they pay enough they'll get workers.

Why would anyone work for $10/hour there? The economics just don't work or they'd have applicants. So the Baskin Robins shop is going to have to pay a livable wage, and people who want that product will have to pay more for it.
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:20 PM   #14
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"So the Baskin Robins shop is going to have to pay a livable wage, and people who want that product will have to pay more for it."

Then Baskins Robins goes out of business in the area because people dont want to pay 15 dollars for an ice cream cone.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:11 PM   #15
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Sigh. Can a person support themselves on $10/hour?
Why would anyone work for $10/hour there? The economics just don't work or they'd have applicants. So the Baskin Robins shop is going to have to pay a livable wage, and people who want that product will have to pay more for it.
Only if they're living with Mom & Dad...

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Old 02-04-2008, 10:21 AM   #16
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ABC News - Arizona Guv: Mac's Border Fix Won't Work

ABC News: Ariz. Governor: Mac's Border Fix Won't Work

The political will, the federal support and the federal funds are not in place to secure the borders.

GOD BLESS US ALL
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Old 02-04-2008, 01:14 PM   #17
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From the article: McCain speaking:
""People want the borders secured first," he continued. "We've got to do that for them, so that we can satisfy their major concern which is national security." Boy, it sounds like his heart is really in it, doesn't it? Not.

But critics of securing the border are right--it is impossible to make the US/Mexico border impenetrable. It will be useful for us to put forth enough effort to drive up the cost of crossing, but we shouldn't think that we can solve this problem through physical barriers. The best answer, and the easiest, is to shut off the magnet that is causing the immigration. Make it easier for employers to tell which prospective employees are Americans/legal aliens, then punish those who hire illegal aliens. The number of jobs and the pay to be earned for doing the remaining ones will both decrease significantly if employers are at high risk for high fines. Then, people will stop crossing and those here will go home. If we want/need guest workers, lets put a program in place and regulate it.
It will be better for Mexico, too, providing the pressure needed for that country to fix the corruption and systemic problems that keep their people poor.
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Old 02-04-2008, 01:35 PM   #18
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samclem, you are right.
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Old 02-04-2008, 02:18 PM   #19
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The best answer, and the easiest, is to shut off the magnet that is causing the immigration. Make it easier for employers to tell which prospective employees are Americans/legal aliens, then punish those who hire illegal aliens.
samclem, you are exactly correct!

You know, just a handful of upper class and upper middle class business owners receiving actual jail time for hiring illegals (directly or via business organizations under their control) would pretty much end the problem. A message needs to be sent, much as in the Martha Stewart case, that the laws do not exist to be flaunted.
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Old 02-04-2008, 02:32 PM   #20
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"So the Baskin Robins shop is going to have to pay a livable wage, and people who want that product will have to pay more for it."

Then Baskins Robins goes out of business in the area because people dont want to pay 15 dollars for an ice cream cone.
Then, obviously, people don't want ice cream badly enough.

If people want ice cream, they'll pay enough so that the owner can offer a wage that will attract workers.
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