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Article: The ‘Radical Saving’ Trend Is Based on Fantasy
Old 11-05-2018, 09:33 AM   #1
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Article: The ‘Radical Saving’ Trend Is Based on Fantasy

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...is-impractical

Pretty stupid article, but the most outrageous statement:

Quote:
If you don’t have the ability to fly first class once in a while, you have probably done something wrong.
Seriously?
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Old 11-05-2018, 09:39 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revhappy View Post

Seriously?
i think it's accurate - it doesn't imply that one should fly first class, just that one could if one chose to
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:02 AM   #3
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Right, Rev, most of us didn’t get where we are by throwing money around! We are people who revel in stealth wealth. Our holey garments speak volumes.
Just sayin’
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:14 AM   #4
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Yes. Doesn't say you have to travel any way, just says that if you can't afford a first class ticket you haven't saved enough dough.

I agree with the article. I couldn't live the way I like with a "microscopic budget", I prefer to have no budget -
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:16 AM   #5
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I don't think it is about 1 first class ticket. It is about the whole package. Someone who can afford a first class ticket can afford a lot of other luxuries. So if someone cannot afford that, does it mean he is doing something wrong? Most people won't be able to afford these luxuries, ER or not.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:20 AM   #6
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That means they are paycheck to paycheck and not saving any dough.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:34 AM   #7
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Most of the actual research studies on happiness show that the activities that make people happy involve activities that don't cost a lot like getting out in nature, exercise and social connections, while excess materialism leads to unhappiness.

A poster on another forum described the people who don't know what they would do all day without a job as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:37 AM   #8
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If you don’t have the ability to fly first class once in a while, you have probably done something wrong.
This is actually one of the least offensive and misleading statements made in the article -- and the article is absolutely littered with false assumptions about FIRE. I think it's pretty reasonable (although not particularly insightful) to say that if someone can't afford to fly first class occasionally, they probably aren't financially independent and shouldn't be retired. I mean, who exactly can't afford first class airfare from time to time? The very poor, or those with ultra-low income? Well, yes... and they probably aren't FIRE'd and that should come as no surprise to anyone!

Here's a much more ridiculous quote:

Quote:
What is wrong with working? Why do the FIRE people dislike working so much that they want to quit at age 35?
The whole article is premised on the false assumption that FIRE is entirely about living an extremely, unreasonably frugal and spartan lifestyle (e.g. the "tiny house" mentality) so that you can retire in your 30s or 40s and never do any sort of work ever again because you loathe working so much. In my experience on this forum, that kind of FIRE outlook accounts for maybe 5% of the people posting here. The article seems to misunderstand and/or deliberately misrepresent the most common profile of someone who is living out their FIRE dreams by making the whole endeavor sound absurd and foolish. Profoundly lazy journalism, at the very least.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:39 AM   #9
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"Personally, I like to consume. I like nice clothes, nice jewelry and going out to nice dinners. I, too, am a radical saver, but the point of my saving isn’t so I don’t have to work, it’s so I can consume more later. "

So, apparently, the author plans to work until he drops dead. But, at least he will have nice clothes and jewelry! No thanks.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post
The whole article is premised on the false assumption that FIRE is entirely about living an extremely, unreasonably frugal and spartan lifestyle (e.g. the "tiny house" mentality) so that you can retire in your 30s or 40s and never do any sort of work ever again because you loathe working so much. In my experience on this forum, that kind of FIRE outlook accounts for maybe 5% of the people posting here. The article seems to misunderstand and/or deliberately misrepresent the most common profile of someone who is living out their FIRE dreams by making the whole endeavor sound absurd and foolish. Profoundly lazy journalism, at the very least.
+1
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:44 AM   #11
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We've had people say at social gatherings I don't know what I would do all day if I didn't work. Then only talk about what fun they had on their 2 week vacation 6 months ago and what they do on the weekends. I felt like saying well, that is what you could do, only all the time.
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:46 AM   #12
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Minimal quotes from the article

Quote:
Working gives people purpose. This is my primary difficulty with universal basic income schemes: most people do not function well with a bunch of unstructured free time.
Part of the false consciousness. The Wealthy are totally unbothered by such thinking and do quite well with unlimited free time. AND they fly first class! But the rest of us need to believe it.

Quote:
I have had unpleasant jobs, and even working an unpleasant job is preferable to not working at all.
See above. Now, get back to work Boy

Quote:
I am one of these people who thinks there is dignity in working, that every job is important no matter how small.
Yes it does and yes they are. Things must be done and progress must be made. But that is not an excuse.

The rest was just too silly. Either somebody was told to fill x amount of column space today or we're beginning to seem upitty ("?" never seen it spelled before) to somebody
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Old 11-05-2018, 10:47 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post

Here's a much more ridiculous quote:



The whole article is premised on the false assumption that FIRE is entirely about living an extremely, unreasonably frugal and spartan lifestyle (e.g. the "tiny house" mentality) so that you can retire in your 30s or 40s and never do any sort of work ever again because you loathe working so much. In my experience on this forum, that kind of FIRE outlook accounts for maybe 5% of the people posting here. The article seems to misunderstand and/or deliberately misrepresent the most common profile of someone who is living out their FIRE dreams by making the whole endeavor sound absurd and foolish. Profoundly lazy journalism, at the very least.
Very good point. Rarely on this forum (which I think has quite a few more "genuine" folks that on say...Reddit) do I read that someone who is FIRE'd is living a spartan lifestyle...or even gnashing their teeth on "not having enough $$$". I actually feel a little guilty that it's looking very likely that our next home will have an in ground pool...and to me, that's not very frugal or "extreme" in any way. I guess I better get back to w*rk...

Quote:
I have had unpleasant jobs, and even working an unpleasant job is preferable to not working at all. I am one of these people who thinks there is dignity in working, that every job is important no matter how small.
Uh, huh? Yeah...this author has ZERO credibility in my opinion.
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Article: The ‘Radical Saving’ Trend Is Based on Fantasy
Old 11-05-2018, 10:58 AM   #14
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Article: The ‘Radical Saving’ Trend Is Based on Fantasy

I’m finally am flying business class next year and I can afford it. I also know that I would not have been happy with a 50 year retirement...fingers crossed that I die before that. I worked from age 17 to age 55 and every job I had gave me purpose to improve my life. I had goals and a future to look forward to.
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:15 AM   #15
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My initial takeaway was that many FIRE assumptions are based on the past 10 year Bull.

If you're 30 and are planning on 60 more years of similar gains without a hiccup, you might re-think it.
Good advice in and of itself.

But the rest of it seems to completely misunderstand the FIRE mentality.
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Old 11-05-2018, 11:30 AM   #16
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For some reason, in retirement I am completely oblivious of the pressures to "keep up with the Joneses" that I felt when working. Contrary to what the article implies, I absolutely *DO* engage in consumerism - - but it's less now than it used to be, because I am buying what I genuinely want instead of buying "good for me" presents to myself after working long and miserable hours, or instead of buying in response to social pressures.

Even if the Dow goes to zero, I'm not going back to work! No way, no how, ain't gonna DO it. I am having too much fun. I can manage and still enjoy life tremendously on just my SS and mini-pension if need be.

Oh, and first class airline tickets? Yeah right. My daughter and I flew first class for coach prices to Hawaii when my father died 37 years ago, because there were no other seats on the plane and the airlines wanted to accommodate me in my grief. But that is the only time I ever flew first class. All that constant world wide travel when I was a baby and kid and young teen, was coach and steerage.
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Old 11-05-2018, 12:26 PM   #17
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A stupid article written by an ignoramus. Citing old Suze was just a reaffirmation of his stupidity. LBYM doesn't mandate living in a cave or eating ramen 3 x 365. It does require mature $$ decisions and reasonable discipline.

Many of us here were smart enough to avoid the (not so) merry go-round of consumer debt, buying McMansions (because the lender and realtor said you could), driving the latest luxury ride via lease, etc. Full disclosure - I was a spendaholic. DW rescued me. I still fall off the wagon occasionally, but I can afford to now.

Achieving FI, and then having the option to RE is a noble and lofty goal. I mentor some nephews and nieces on FI. I'll let them figure out the RE on their own (unless they ask).

DW and I are guilty of always flying first class. We only fly a handful of times each year, and travel is one area where we'll blow that dough. In some other areas, frugality is the rule.
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Hitter View Post
i think it's accurate - it doesn't imply that one should fly first class, just that one could if one chose to
The author's comment reminds me of a silly joke that went around when I was in elementary school:

Joey: I wish I had enough money to buy an elephant.

Mike: Why in the world would you want an elephant?

Joey: I don't want an elephant. I just want enough money to buy one.
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:27 PM   #19
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History buffs might take a look at Mr Market 1966 -1982 the first leg my ER savings.

The author cannot grasp the shear joy and ecstasy of being a 'cheap SOB and proud of it.'

Perhaps a viewing of 'The Four Yorkshiremen' might help.

heh heh heh - I remain exceedingly grateful to 'Bogle's Folley' and the compound interest curve. Of note my lowest to highest annual expenses over 25 years of ER have increased by a factor of 10 - times that is.
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:50 PM   #20
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I find it hard to understand why all of a sudden this flurry of articles beating up on FIRE?

I've come to the conclusion that it has to come down to jealousy. If not, then why care? Looking to save all those folks from ending out panhandling on the street? If someone miscalculates and down the road they aren't able to make it work, so that's their problem. A choice that was made - no different than author buying his nice clothes, nice jewelry, and nice dinners out. Many folks will work their entire lives, like the author - and that's wonderful if that's what they want. However, enjoying those (consumable) things now, keeping up with the Joneses, takes away from savings and the potential of a solid retirement later, or possibly even being able to retire. So, again, if someone has figured out how to make it work and retire earlier, on whatever budget or lifestyle they choose, why should it be of any concern to anyone?

Now, I'll be the first to agree that the stock market has made many folks feel wealthier than they really are. If/when that comes to an end is anyone's guess. However, there are plenty of folks who are not dependent on the stock market, have gotten all their ducks in a row, and can make it work.

It's a pity that articles like this can do no better than hypothesize that it can't work...or question why would anyone want to do it? I guess if you can't have it, then find a reason to knock it - nobody should be able to do it or be happy doing it.
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