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Old 12-19-2007, 03:19 PM   #21
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They are aggravating because I use them on the garage door opener, and it takes too long to get "up to speed"........
The "up to speed" sucks, but CFLs are way better for garage door openers. I hated having to get up there every 3 months to replace a tungsten bulb that was rattled to an early burn-out.
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:20 PM   #22
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The "up to speed" sucks, but CFLs are way better for garage door openers. I hated having to get up there every 3 months to replace a tungsten bulb that was rattled to an early burn-out.
Which is why I did it, also in the basement I installed can lights, and put CFL's in them, we spend a lot of time down there, so I figure they're saving me a little.

There are now dimmable CFL's, although I haven't been able to find them anywhere...........
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:41 PM   #23
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Agreed that there are problems with laws like this, but I bet there would be a net benefit to this law. It's the clueless people who's living room is lit by 10 ceiling lights that need to get CFLs.

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The initial hit for a CFL is larger than an incandescent, so turning on a closet light for 1 minute takes more energy with a CFL.
I can't find any info on this, do you have any links? I found this:
Replacing incandescent lights that are on for a short period of time with compact fluorescents is not very cost effective, because compact fluorescents cost so much more than incandescents (about 22 dollars compared to 75 cents).
However, CFL's now cost around 75 cents (they have them at the dollar store, too).

BTW I've been using this fluorescent drop light for 15 years; it's never broken, and I've never burned my elbow on it.
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Old 12-19-2007, 03:52 PM   #24
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BTW I've been using this fluorescent drop light for 15 years; it's never broken, and I've never burned my elbow on it.
Well, that's fine for you in the tropics. Here in the North sometimes that bit-o-heat coming from the bulb can be very nice when you're under the car!
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Old 12-19-2007, 05:18 PM   #25
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You're kidding, right?

If a CFL is not on much, it'll still last 7-10,000 hours, regardless of whether it's on 2 hours a day or 10. :confused:
I'm talking about closet lights, basement lights, back porch & attic lights, - ones that are turned on occasionally. Lots of lights in this house may not get turned on for weeks or even months, and then maybe just for ten minutes. Both the CFLs and those old tungsten i-bulbs (can we call them ILBs? - I get tired typing and correcting that other word) will essentially last forever too. In fact, on average, I'd bet on the ILB in those cases - fewer components.

Anyone have a real average cost for CFLs? There are sales, some states have rebates or subsidize them (making them more expensive actually) - I don't even know what number to use for a calculation they vary so widely. Or an ILB for that matter.

Go through your house and tally them up. I did it once (and lost the sheet of paper...), and I had to keep going back because I forgot this or that seldom-used bulb. I do have a fairly large house - but that mandate is one-size-fits-all; that's what I don't like.

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Old 12-19-2007, 06:04 PM   #26
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[quote"In this bill, we ban by 2012 the famously inefficient 100-watt incandescent bulb," said Rep. Jane Harman (D-Venice), who co-sponsored that provision.[/quote]

If the folks at GE have even a little sense of humor and chutzpah, they'll market a 99 watt incandescent bulb within the week. It will be in a green box and say "meets latest Federal Guidelines." Four bulbs will be packed in about 2 lbs of plastic.
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Old 12-19-2007, 06:09 PM   #27
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I just purchased 4 - 40 watt Walmart True Value brand $4.95. One 60 watt GE was $6.95 I think. Not sure as I was looking for 40 watts.
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Old 12-19-2007, 06:14 PM   #28
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Well, that's fine for you in the tropics. Here in the North sometimes that bit-o-heat coming from the bulb can be very nice when you're under the car!
Last month's Family Handyman featured an LED drop light...

Using a drop light in our house is a sign that we should take it to the mechanic. But as presbyopia really kicks in I can't work without a head-mounted LED light. In another couple years I may be reading with one, too.
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Old 12-19-2007, 06:51 PM   #29
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Wait a minute - weren't you trying to convince me of the overwhelming power of advertising over on the CAFE thread? Now you say the education through the media has had minimal effect?
Nope, you're confused because even though I re-explained it three times, you didnt get it.

I never said that advertising can overwhelm anything at all. In fact, I specifically said it was largely ineffective in getting people to do something they dont want to do anyhow.

The specific advertising I mentioned involved getting people to do what they want to do anyhow: buy a big honking SUV.

As far as the rest, I think you're mind is made up already. People just dont like being told what to do, even if its good for them and everyone else. Education only works if you want to be educated. Most people really dont. They prefer to cling to the beliefs they've already built up. Whaaa? Just like now!

BTW, startup time energy advantage for an incandescent over a cfl isnt a minute. In fact, its cheaper to start and run a cfl for 15 seconds than an incandescent bulb. I believe that some of the newest technology has that under 5 seconds.
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Old 12-19-2007, 07:46 PM   #30
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About half of my light fixtures have CFL's, the other half have incandescents. I want it this way: 1) because it's the most cost-effective and environmentally friendly approach; and 2) because of the added safety.

I rarely use half the lights in my house either because I don't frequent the room or because I'm in the room for only a few seconds. CFL's are not efficient in these situations. I've lived in my house for 9 1/2 years. Most of the incandescents are from the previous owners. Incandescents last forever when they're rarely used.

Safety is an important issue. When I turn on my porch light (not often), I don't want to wait before its bright enough to see who or what is outside. I want it to be as bright as possible as soon as I flip the switch. Same with my garage. It's the same with individuals who need to walk up or down a flight of stairs to a basement or attic. In these situations, light, lots of light, as soon as you can get it, is good.

CFL's are more hazardous than incandescents. Yes, there are proper disposal methods. However, the same people who will be forced to "help the environment" by using CFL's will be the same people who end up hurting the environment by not properly disposing of CFL's. It will be one problem creating another problem. This is the one thing that our government does well.

My electric bill averages about $10-15/month. About half of this is for my refrigerator, the other half goes for the stove, oven, microwave, washer, dyer, computer, TV, electric blanket, misc, and lighting. I believe my lighting costs are about $2/month. To first order, this is 1 100W incandescent or 4 100W CFL's for 7-8 hours/day. I don't need more light since I can only be in one place at one time.

They key to low electric usage is simple. Turn it off when its not in use.

Anything that encourages people to be more electrically efficient is good. This could be higher electric rates or wide-spread education. There has been very little education targeting easy steps that average people can do (such as turn it off when its not in use). We need that Native American guy with the tear in his eye (although I believe he died). Forcing people to use CFL's is not the answer. I find it both ironic and unfortunate that some of the biggest wasters of energy are individuals who think forced CFL usage is a good idea.
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Old 12-19-2007, 07:51 PM   #31
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Mythbusters found this result: The startup energy for a CFL is negligible.

They're specifically looking at the myth of "If you're leaving a room, and coming back, you should leave the light on instead of turn it off."

Based on the amount of energy consumed turning on the bulb, they were able calculated how long the bulb would have to be turned off in order to make it worth the energy savings, i.e. "It's best to turn off the bulb if you are leaving the room for":In other words, its almost always best to turn the bulb off. Even the 23 seconds for the fluorescent lights isn't very long, and the rest of the times are pretty much blinks of an eye.
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Old 12-19-2007, 07:57 PM   #32
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Ayuh Al, thats one of the data sources I used.

I used a simple method. I put all CFL's in my old house, and when I moved, I took all the CFL's with me, installed them in the new house, and put all the old incandescents into the old house...

I also left my 10 year supply of cheap incandescents in a cabinet at the old place since I wasnt ever going to use them again...
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Old 12-19-2007, 08:06 PM   #33
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I've been buying these the last year:

Homedepot 14

Homedepot 9

We been using them for years - the newer ones turn on right away and with more agreeable light - I just did a quick count - there are 49 on the property - even work outside when -20. The cost continues to go down - guess we have China to thank for that. I suppose if everyone starts buying them the cost should I hope continue to go down.

Cost me about $85 instead of about $25.

Might be a hardship for some Early Retires or ER To Be's to come up with a few extra sawbucks, but from what I've read on the forum, would be surprised if anyone is hurting that badly here.

We have drop offs here at stores and city recycling centers for old bulbs - not a big deal to save it and remember to take it with you the next trip - same place we take batteries...

So sometimes you replace a 50 cent bulb with a $1.75 one that isn't used very much. I heard that there will still be old style bulbs but will be 30% more efficient, so there will be a choice. If one has an anti-authority complex or feels strongly enough about being forced to do this, they can always stockpile the old bulbs and factor in how long they expect to live, then after they drop dead and the lights go out the wife can go to the store after the funeral and get the more modern bulbs.

And now for some incandescent light bulb jokes:

How the Bush Administration Changes a Light Bulb
How many members of the Bush administration does it take to change a light bulb?
1. One to deny that a light bulb needs to be changed;
2. One to attack the patriotism of anyone who says the light bulb needs to be changed;
3. One to blame Clinton for burning out the light bulb;
4. One to arrange the invasion of a country rumored to have a secret stockpile of light bulbs;
5. One to give a billion dollar no-bid contract to Halliburton for the new light bulb;
6. One to arrange a photograph of Bush, dressed as a janitor, standing on a step ladder under the banner: Light Bulb Change Accomplished;
7. One administration insider to resign and write a book documenting in detail how Bush was literally in the dark;
8. One to viciously smear #7;
9. One surrogate to campaign on TV and at rallies on how George Bush has had a strong light-bulb-changing policy all along;
10. And finally one to confuse Americans about the difference between screwing a light bulb and screwing the country.


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Old 12-19-2007, 08:15 PM   #34
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By the way, dont freak out if you break one of these. It seems it takes about 10-15 minutes for any mercury to start leaking out of it, the mercury level in the room will remain below OSHA levels for about an hour (way less than eating a tuna fish sandwich), and then dissipate to nearly nothing. So if you break one, sweep it up and get it into a garbage can outside.

They have to put these in a suction machine to get the mercury out of them in a timely manner during recycling.
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Old 12-19-2007, 08:35 PM   #35
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The mercury argument is another red herring. There is roughly 100 times more mercury in a household themometer as in a CFL. So if you break a couple of themometer in your life you've add as much mercury as a lifetime supply of CFLs. (It isn't exactly a apples to apples comparison, but the bottom line is the mercury in CFL is small enough they aren't a health hazard)

I have not replaced all the CFL in my house but as bulbs burn out I do.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:40 AM   #36
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So armed with all this data about saving energy and money I went to Lowes this evening so buy some CFL's and do my part in saving the world. After spending about 30 minutes looking at what they had to offer I ended up buying 1 CFL to experiment with. I'm going to try it in some different applications and see how it behaves. Mostly what I'm after is cold weather operation, down to at least 0 f. I had intended on buying as many as 12 in various wattages.

What stopped me was little things like "do not use with electronic timers", "do not use with dimmers", "do not use in enclosed fixtures."

Lowes only had one CFB that can be used with a dimmer and none that can be used with electronic timers. So back to square one on my thinking about saving the world.

Before I invest in changing over some of our most often used lamps to CFL's I need to spend some more money, about $150. My home automation system which operates most of the lamps I wanted to replace won't operate the CFL's. My dad used to say, "If you want economy, you're going to have to pay for it".

The one lamp I did buy was a 125 watt lamp and is currently in the family room. Both DW and I decided the color wasn't bad but it's not bright enough to do much reading with so will need to find a brighter one.

On the way home from Lowes I got to wondering if this is going to be a wild goose chase like so many other energy saving ideas. In the two mile drive back I must have passed 200 or more street lights all blazing away in the darkness lighting mostly empty streets. Some how I think we are working the wrong side of the equation.
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Old 12-20-2007, 06:36 AM   #37
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Maybe you will have to smuggle your light bulbs along with your drugs from Canada? Where is the light bulb lobby when you need it? Another possibility is to just go to Washington and harvest the extra dim bulbs that are everywhere.
Sorry, kcowan. Canada passed a similar bill earlier this year. There goes my cross-border business of smuggling of light bulbs one way and high flow rate toilets the other.
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Old 12-20-2007, 07:49 AM   #38
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[quote"In this bill, we ban by 2012 the famously inefficient 100-watt incandescent bulb," said Rep. Jane Harman (D-Venice), who co-sponsored that provision.
If the folks at GE have even a little sense of humor and chutzpah, they'll market a 99 watt incandescent bulb within the week. It will be in a green box and say "meets latest Federal Guidelines." Four bulbs will be packed in about 2 lbs of plastic.[/quote]

samclem - Is that a 'loophole' you identified? No self-respecting company or person would EVER do something so transparent, perish the thought!

whoooops:

GE LIGHTING 11906 ''GE MISER'' INCANDESCENT A19 Medium Screw(E26) 120V 95W SOFT WHITE

GE LIGHTING 11906 ''GE MISER'' INCANDESCENT A19 Medium Screw(E26) 120V 95W SOFT WHITE

Or some people will put two 60W bulbs in place of a single 100W (I have a 100W in some dual socket fixtures in my home). 20% more energy used for LESS light output.

Now, someone explain to me how any 'loopholes', and unintended consequences like this could exists if we simply increased electricity prices to encourage overall conservation, rather than 'build a higher fence but leave the gate open' approaches?

-ERD50
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Old 12-20-2007, 09:01 AM   #39
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What stopped me was little things like "do not use with electronic timers", "do not use with dimmers", "do not use in enclosed fixtures."

Lowes only had one CFB that can be used with a dimmer and none that can be used with electronic timers. So back to square one on my thinking about saving the world.
Does this include the timer you plug into your outlet with a clockface that rotates and clicks a peg to turn on, and another to turn off? I was just going to set up a timer tonight on a CFL lamp for while I'm away. I don't think that's what they mean by "electronic" timer but it is plugged in so I don't know for sure.
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