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Old 12-22-2007, 04:07 AM   #101
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dont confuse watts consumed with lumen output on lamps they are very different. when we say a lamp is 100watt or 75 watt we are referring to the power consumed , it has nothing to do with the light output and for how long.

the cheapie compacts are really not all that efficiant when you take the reduced light output they give vs the greater lumen output for the more expensive cfl...... also most important, flourescent lamps get dimmer and dimmer starting the moment you throw the light switch. so much so they can loose 60% of their light output towards the end of the lamp life.

this gradual getting dimmer and dimmer is not a spec you can look at.

see how lamp life is rated. usually its the point where 1/2 the lamps tested burned out. dosnt mean you will ever get anywhere near that point .

how many hours on and off do they test these lamps? manufacturers can rate a lamp for as many hours as they want by playing with the on off cycles.

point is if you truly want to save money dont buy these crappie chinese imports.
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Old 12-22-2007, 10:32 AM   #102
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I'm noticing that there are some misconceptions about this law, based on the reports in the media. For example, I found no mention of 100-watt light bulbs being specifically banned.

The law isn't really one-size-fits-all, since it has a million exclusions, such as:
          • `(I) An appliance lamp.
          • `(II) A black light lamp.
          • `(III) A bug lamp.
          • `(IV) A colored lamp.
          • `(V) An infrared lamp.
          • `(VI) A left-hand thread lamp.
          • `(VII) A marine lamp.
          • `(VIII) A marine signal service lamp.
          • `(IX) A mine service lamp.
          • `(X) A plant light lamp.
          • `(XI) A reflector lamp.
          • `(XII) A rough service lamp.
          • `(XIII) A shatter-resistant lamp (including a shatter-proof lamp and a shatter-protected lamp).
          • `(XIV) A sign service lamp.
          • `(XV) A silver bowl lamp.
          • `(XVI) A showcase lamp.
          • `(XVII) A 3-way incandescent lamp.
          • `(XVIII) A traffic signal lamp.
          • `(XIX) A vibration service lamp.'; and

Funny that congress makes a point of saying "incandescent light bulbs are based on technology that is more than 125 years old" as if that justifies anything.

  • Congress finds that--
    • (1) there are approximately 4,000,000,000 screw-based sockets in the United States that contain traditional, energy-inefficient, incandescent light bulbs;
    • (2) incandescent light bulbs are based on technology that is more than 125 years old; and
    • (3) it is in the national interest to encourage the use of more energy-efficient lighting products in the market through energy conservation standards that become effective during the 8-year period beginning on the date of enactment of this Act and--
      • (A) establish the efficiency requirements to ensure that replacement lamps will provide consumers with the same quantity of light while using significantly less energy;
      • (B) ensure that consumers will continue to have multiple product choices, including energy-saving halogen, incandescent, compact fluorescent, and LED light bulbs; and
      • (C) work with industry and key stakeholders on measures that can assist consumers and businesses in making the important transition to more efficient lighting.
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Old 12-22-2007, 10:41 AM   #103
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Yeah, I think some folks seized on the "oh my god, they're going to tell me what to do" sensationalism and didnt read the proposals.

It doesnt "outlaw" incandescents. It does outlaw high energy use, low light output ratio bulbs. Which *is* most current incandescents. Some newer incandescent technologies can be used to make bulbs that will be efficient enough to meet the new standard. Even some of the more inefficient fluorescent bulbs wont make the cut.

The law also only addresses 25-100 watt bulbs. Smaller and larger specialty bulbs are excluded.

The law doesnt take effect until 2012, and is phased in for several years after that.
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Old 12-22-2007, 10:45 AM   #104
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And it doesn't make you turn in your old bulbs.
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Old 12-22-2007, 11:18 AM   #105
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I'm pretty sure they stay off your lawn too.
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Old 12-22-2007, 11:27 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
I'm noticing that there are some misconceptions about this law, based on the reports in the media. For example, I found no mention of 100-watt light bulbs being specifically banned.

The law isn't really one-size-fits-all, since it has a million exclusions, such as: ....
Thanks for the info T-Al, I was going by that quote from the co-sponsor of the bill (from my OP):
Quote:
"In this bill, we ban by 2012 the famously inefficient 100-watt incandescent bulb," said Rep. Jane Harman (D-Venice), who co-sponsored that provision.
So, either she was misquoted, or she does not understand her own bill - both are possibilities, I suppose.

Oh, and to be clear to some earlier posters - no - I did not mean 'Now they've done it' in a partisan sense. I didn't even look at which party sponsored or pushed the bill. I meant 'they' as 'government'. Unfortunately, stupid policies do not seem to be limited to one party or the other.

That list of exclusions ( I'm assuming that was some of your dry humor T-AL), reminds me of my earlier statement that Congress making technology decisions for me is like me telling Monet how to paint. Think about how much time and debate went into that list (hey - you guys forgot about left-handed, metric, marine, bug - lights - we got to go for another draft of this!). Doesn't Congress have any REAL work to do?

Yes, any 125 yo tech MUST be bad, geesh. I could make a few analogies, but we'd back to the infamous 'milk-thread' - you trouble-maker T-AL!

Do electric companies still give a 'discount' rate if you have an electric water heater? Here's one I googled:

Quote:
We also offer an off-peak rate for customers who use electricity as the primary energy source for their home heating needs. This rate is a 1.5 cent per kWh discount off our regular rate!
Hey, hey, hey! Cheaper by the dozen - that sure will promote conservation. Get yours now, before we run out!


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Old 12-22-2007, 11:53 AM   #107
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I've burned out two compact fluorescent bulbs in my stairwell in 18 months. So much for long-life, total return on investment theory. The first time I just dropped the bad bulb in the trash. After reading about all the mercury stuff on this thread, I decided to take the second one to the landfill to dispose of it properly. Turned out to be a waste of time, actually I was going to the landfill anyway. When I asked the landfill attendant where I should dispose of the fluorescent bulb, she said just throw it in the dumpster with the rest of the trash. :confused: So now what?
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Old 12-22-2007, 11:56 AM   #108
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Perhaps we can employ some of the rest of the brain and figure out that what she said is accurate, and so is what Al said.

The 100 watt incandescent bulb is not being banned, nor are all 100 watt bulbs. High efficiency 100 watt bulbs will still be available, as will high efficiency 100 watt halogens, 100 watt output CFL's, 100 watt output LED's, etc.

General Electric: Corporate News on the Net brought to you by Business Wire
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Old 12-22-2007, 11:58 AM   #109
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I didn't see Lava Lamps on the exclusion lists. It's McCarthyism all over again.

Somewhat more seriously, I am a CFL fan in concept but was rather PO'ed at my last purchase. I bought name brand (Sylvania or GE) CFL ceiling fan bulbs presuming they would be instant-on and acceptably bright immediately. They are quite slow to come to decent brightness.

One thing about incandescent is you know what you're getting when you buy it. They turn on instantly and brightly, and the name brands generally are less likely to die on you immediately, but you can play a bit of bargain roulette with the cheap ones. CFLs have been a bit more of a grab bag. I suppose I'm going to have to consult Consumer Reports before my next CFL purchase.

I do love CFL 3-way bulbs. I have had lifelong extreme bad luck with incandescent 3-ways. Invariably I burn out one of the filaments in the first week and end up with an expensive one-brightness bulb that takes two clicks to turn on or off. The CFL 3-ways have far surpassed that, but the ones I have were difficult to fit under the lampshade bracket.

(And yeah, lava lamps take appliance bulbs which were on the exclusion list.)
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Old 12-22-2007, 12:38 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Perhaps we can employ some of the rest of the brain and figure out that what she said is accurate, and so is what Al said.

The 100 watt incandescent bulb is not being banned, nor are all 100 watt bulbs. High efficiency 100 watt bulbs will still be available, as will high efficiency 100 watt halogens, 100 watt output CFL's, 100 watt output LED's, etc.

General Electric: Corporate News on the Net brought to you by Business Wire
Trust me, the brain is engaged - I even fed it it's MDR of caffeine today.

I fully understand that they did not specifically call out the 100 watt incandescent bulb, but they (as I understand it) did, through their wording, ban current technology 100 watt incandescent bulbs, as they don't meet the limits.

If/when GE (or anyone else) comes out with an alternative (ILB, LED, or caged fireflies) that is more efficient, and cheap enough to be cost effective in low use sockets, guess what? I will engage my brain and start buying them for my low use sockets. I won't need a law, just like I didn't need one when I bought the current CFLs I own.

<satire>I still have some Christmas/Birthday shopping to do. Guess I'll wait for a government representative to accompany me. I am incapable of making a purchasing decision on my own.</satire>

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Old 12-22-2007, 12:59 PM   #111
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I think thats probably a pretty fair statement without the satirical elements.
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Old 12-22-2007, 04:41 PM   #112
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And it doesn't make you turn in your old bulbs.
Yes, but will we be allowed to possess bulbs more powerful than those used by law-enforcement agencies?
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Old 12-22-2007, 04:56 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
The law doesnt take effect until 2012, and is phased in for several years after that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha View Post
And it doesn't make you turn in your old bulbs.
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Originally Posted by Nords View Post
Yes, but will we be allowed to possess bulbs more powerful than those used by law-enforcement agencies?
When bulbs are outlawed, ...
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Old 12-22-2007, 06:24 PM   #114
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Yeah, some people are still pissing and moaning about unleaded gas too...
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Old 12-23-2007, 09:37 AM   #115
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The list of exclusions (all real!) and the complexity of the law

(example:‘‘(i) has a minimum of 5 supports
with filament configurations similar to but
not limited to C–7A, C–11, C–17, and C–
22 as listed in Figure 6–12 of the 9th edi-
tion of the IESNA Lighting handbook,
where lead wires are not counted as sup-
ports

makes me wonder whether instead of over-regulating us, the law will in fact have enough loopholes that it will be relatively ineffective. For example, maybe people will just buy silver bowl lights, whatever those are.
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:30 AM   #116
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For example, maybe people will just buy silver bowl lights, whatever those are.
I think it's these:
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:41 AM   #117
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The list of exclusions (all real!) and the complexity of the law

(example:(i) has a minimum of 5 supports
with filament configurations similar to but
not limited to C7A, C11, C17, and C
22 as listed in Figure 612 of the 9th edi-
tion of the IESNA Lighting handbook,
where lead wires are not counted as sup-
ports

makes me wonder whether instead of over-regulating us, the law will in fact have enough loopholes that it will be relatively ineffective. For example, maybe people will just buy silver bowl lights, whatever those are.
Complex regulations, loopholes? Nah - it's all for our own good T-Al!

So maybe the next jokes will go something like:

Q: How many people does it take to develop a new light bulb?

A: One engineer, Congress, several teams of lawyers, and a forest to make the paper to print the regulations.

Look at the 35mpg thread for some other ways government is 'helping' us to reduce our dependance on oil. They threaten to throw a 79 YO guy in prison for driving a veggie-oil-mobile.

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Old 12-23-2007, 05:42 PM   #118
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I think it's these:
Hey! My pitcher dint go through!

I will try again.
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:57 AM   #119
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Before worrying about the individual sector.. I'd like to see someone address the prison-yard / concentration-camp-levels of lighting along roadways and in shopping areas / parking lots. Is all that glare really necessary? Do we need to be surrounded by light at all times?
It has been proved that light has a tendency to scare bad guys. Some places do go a little overboard, but it could save the company millions in pay out if someone was actually robbed and tried to sue the company for not enough lighting. Not to mention the people would be reluctant to go to a store that has a high crime rate because of poor lighting. Nobody wants to be a victim of a crime.
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Old 12-24-2007, 08:25 AM   #120
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An interesting little side bar to the bulb's demise.

GE Developing Incandescent Light Bulb That Matches CFLs Efficiency Environmental Leader Green Business and Corporate Sustainability News
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