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Old 05-21-2015, 09:45 AM   #41
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I've never moved without a job and megacorp always paid for it.
Lucky you. Most of the jobs I've seen, even for internal positions, do not have relocation assistance anymore. You must be pretty high up or have skills in high demand for that.
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:48 AM   #42
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Lucky you. Most of the jobs I've seen, even for internal positions, do not have relocation assistance anymore. You must be pretty high up or have skills in high demand for that.
I have professional credentials that took years of sacrifice.

When everyone else in their 20s was out picking strawberries in Spain and/or taking motorcycle trips across the country I was working 40-50 hours a week and studying.
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:50 AM   #43
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Goodie, but it means nothing except for you. Unless all or nearly all workers can expect that it is not a workable idea. Only the exceptions get that kind of deal. The Masses don't and never can The system won't support it. . That is why companies off-shore jobs. They have no intention of moving anybody.
seasoned professionals get relos, especially when changing firms

ask a comp consultant if you don't believe me
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Old 05-21-2015, 09:51 AM   #44
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It depends a bit on the country and area of course, but in many places we already have a "basic income" of sorts cobbled together. The US probably much less so than for example European countries.

Emergency medical care, unemployment benefits, social benefits, pensions, handicapped, childcare, housing subsidies, even soup kitchens, homeless shelters, safe houses, food stamps, are all handouts of some sorts.

The big difference is that most of these are targeted at people unable to contribute to society (anymore).

Now, what about those unwilling to contribute? Will we let them starve to death, be homeless or sick?

That to me is the philosophical question and I don't have a clear answer. I tend to lean to "no" though and towards giving everyone a minimum.

This way we can cut back on waste in figuring out who is unable (vs. unwilling) and also out of abundance reasoning: Even if we had a bunch of slackers getting less than minimum wage for doing nothing, would it really make a dent in our economy? Maybe we're better off them not being in the workforce

I don't know, it's interesting though to think about it.
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:16 AM   #45
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I think all our real needs with respect to food, clothing, and shelter can be fulfilled without employing much of the work force. It's why there is so much junk produced along with plenty of wasted time.
Yup, it's either your time or your money. This has been discussed here before I believe:

Economics: Whatever happened to Keynes' 15-hour working week? asks Larry Elliott | Business | The Guardian

"Back in 1930, Keynes predicted that the working week would be drastically cut, to perhaps 15 hours a week, with people choosing to have far more leisure as their material needs were satisfied."

Some, especially on here, have embraced a simpler/cheaper life to enjoy life, but most have overwhelmingly voted for more work/money/stuff.

But from a theoretical standpoint, if everyone worked 15 hour weeks, there would be enough work to go around, though the standard of living would be lower. So those that want a higher SOL would work longer to earn more money, driving prices up in the process. So everyone else would now have to work longer to maintain the same SOL they had before. But then others would work even harder to get a better SOL, so more hours and then....

Unfortunately this is the nature of the beast until the human population declines appreciably. The only reason 40 hours is now the norm is because it's enshrined in law. And of course many "exempt" employees generally work more than the norm.

The only way to get out of the whole mess is to work 168 hrs a week, earn a Boeing 747-load of money, quit, live off the earnings, and die a day later of pure exhaustion. Or work, save, invest, LBYM, and retire a few decades later, but that's just boring and take too long.
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:31 AM   #46
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But from a theoretical standpoint, if everyone worked 15 hour weeks, there would be enough work to go around, though the standard of living would be lower.
they mandate something like that in France - doesn't seem to be working

problem is there aren't an infinite number of jobs
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Old 05-21-2015, 10:39 AM   #47
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Anon, that's an interesting article, thanks for sharing it.
This part caught my eye:
But Keynes also got it spectacularly wrong. Rising living standards have not led to people deciding that they can satisfy their material desires through a much truncated working week. The number of hours worked in the United States has remained pretty much steady for decades, and is 30% higher than in Europe. Europeans tend to use up all their holiday entitlement; Americans, even though their vacations are shorter, do not. The decision by Nicolas Sarkozy to scrap France's 35-hour week suggests that the American model is gaining the upper hand. Workers in the west are told to work longer and harder to meet the brutal competitive challenge from the east. If Keynes was right about a life of leisure, more of us would be working four-day weeks. As it is, the trend is in the opposite direction.

Followed by this:
Keynes's big failure was to recognise that distribution matters. The economic problem will not be solved while a quarter of the world lives in abject poverty, nor while a good slice of those living in developed countries are not sharing in economic prosperity or feel they need to spend longer and longer on the treadmill just to make ends meet.

Of course, I'd probably opt for the Boeing-sized load of cash, if there's a line forming for that option.
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Old 05-21-2015, 12:26 PM   #48
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My friends who fit your description define "the rich" as anyone earning a penny more than them. Really flexible folks. They get a $1k raise and immediately feel that tax brackets should move up $1k so "the rich" pay more but they continue to pay less.

Sigh...... Observing life and people is one of the most interesting things about being retired and having time to do so.
Yup, I had a friend like that. Probably made about double what I make. Always complaining about "the rich". When I told him that most people would probably classify him as a member of "the rich", he didn't want to hear it. He then switched to demonizing the "1%". And didn't like it when I told him he was probably in the "10%" (income-wise, but not net-worth-wise). He still kept whining about how those "other" rich need to pay more. Nevermind the fact that there aren't enough of those "other" rich to go around, to solve all of this country's ills.

One other thing that might distort my friend's attitudes though, is living in Washington DC. Rowhouses that haven't been condo-ized yet are often going for $1M or more. And even the ones that have been broken up are turned into condos ranging from $400K-700K, depending on the size. So while a $150k salary (I think that's about what he made) could put you well into the top 10%, nationally, in DC you're going to be concentrated with a lot of other high income individuals, so suddenly it doesn't seem like much. DC has gotten to the point I don't think I could even afford to live in a bad neighborhood!
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Old 05-21-2015, 02:10 PM   #49
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I think that's complicated by the fact that most households are now dual income.
The increased "cost" of moving for dual income couples probably decreases the the flexibility of the US labor force, and reduces US productivity.
OTOH, there's obviously increased flexibility due to the fact that women can now find plenty of employment in fields where they haven't previously been. Men, too.
I've heard it said that one unintended impact of wider female career opportunities is to decrease the quality of our elementary school teachers. In the past, we had this tremendous pool of smart, talented women who would take jobs as schoolteachers at relatively low pay (because that was one of the few careers open to them). We got tremendous teachers at low cost (well--low cost to the school districts. Probably big opportunity costs to the economy as a whole).
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Old 05-21-2015, 02:14 PM   #50
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t
problem is there aren't an infinite number of jobs
But, there ain't a fixed number, either. When labor costs go down (in a region or everywhere), new jobs are created because jobs that didn't make economic sense at higher wages become feasible. There's no finite number of jobs to be distributed, the number of jobs goes up and down for all kinds of reasons.
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Old 05-21-2015, 02:18 PM   #51
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Yup, I had a friend like that. Probably made about double what I make. Always complaining about "the rich". When I told him that most people would probably classify him as a member of "the rich", he didn't want to hear it. He then switched to demonizing the "1%". And didn't like it when I told him he was probably in the "10%" (income-wise, but not net-worth-wise). He still kept whining about how those "other" rich need to pay more. Nevermind the fact that there aren't enough of those "other" rich to go around, to solve all of this country's ills.

One other thing that might distort my friend's attitudes though, is living in Washington DC. Rowhouses that haven't been condo-ized yet are often going for $1M or more. And even the ones that have been broken up are turned into condos ranging from $400K-700K, depending on the size. So while a $150k salary (I think that's about what he made) could put you well into the top 10%, nationally, in DC you're going to be concentrated with a lot of other high income individuals, so suddenly it doesn't seem like much. DC has gotten to the point I don't think I could even afford to live in a bad neighborhood!

Rich is a pliable word I think based on my experiences. My working friends have twice the income I have but since I have saved more they think I am "rich". I have twice the income my father has but I think he is rich because his investible assets dwarf mine. He thinks he is poor because he is determined to live off his SS and tiny pension and will not crack his investment nut even though he is almost 80.


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Old 05-21-2015, 02:39 PM   #52
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Rich is a pliable word I think based on my experiences. My working friends have twice the income I have but since I have saved more they think I am "rich". I have twice the income my father has but I think he is rich because his investible assets dwarf mine. He thinks he is poor because he is determined to live off his SS and tiny pension and will not crack his investment nut even though he is almost 80.


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Let's see, which would it be?

"Like father like son"

"The apple doesn't fall far from the tree"

Just kidding.......
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Old 05-21-2015, 02:47 PM   #53
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Let's see, which would it be?

"Like father like son"

"The apple doesn't fall far from the tree"

Just kidding.......

If I had been more like him when I was younger, I wouldn't have to be like him now.... Well on second thought your right. I would even be tighter with my money now if I started that way earlier in life!


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Old 05-21-2015, 03:12 PM   #54
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I have professional credentials that took years of sacrifice.

When everyone else in their 20s was out picking strawberries in Spain and/or taking motorcycle trips across the country I was working 40-50 hours a week and studying.
Sacrifice? In school? Some of us were in uniform being shot at protecting our freedom, not picking strawberries in Spain or other places or in cozy classroom when you were "sacrificing".

Believe it or not, many of us here have advance degrees and professional certifications also so it's really no big deal.
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Old 05-21-2015, 03:21 PM   #55
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Sacrifice? In school? Some of us were in uniform being shot at protecting our freedom, not picking strawberries in Spain or other places or in cozy classroom when you were "sacrificing".

Believe it or not, many of us here have advance degrees and professional certifications also so it's really no big deal.
no, after hours studying in my squalid apartment after work


I didn't really feel like joining the service after my brother got drafted during Viet Nam - thanks for your service tho
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Old 05-21-2015, 03:24 PM   #56
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Big Hitter, you're just BEGGING for the Four Yorkshiremen now, lol!

Cued up, just for you:

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Old 05-21-2015, 03:29 PM   #57
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Big Hitter, you're just BEGGING for the Four Yorkshiremen now, lol!

Cued up, just for you:
wow, that's pretty accurate

we were po but my mom made darn sure we weren't white trash...
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Old 05-21-2015, 05:07 PM   #58
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The big difference is that most of these are targeted at people unable to contribute to society (anymore).

Now, what about those unwilling to contribute? Will we let them starve to death, be homeless or sick?

That to me is the philosophical question and I don't have a clear answer. I tend to lean to "no" though and towards giving everyone a minimum.
I'm sure that most people have no problem helping those who are truly unable to contribute.

It's the unwilling who garner little sympathy...once their fridge is empty and no one fills it for them, most of them will get off their ass and do something about it. No one is so lazy that they will starve to death...but many of them are lazy enough to let society support them.
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:44 AM   #59
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I'm coming to this discussion late but thought I'd post some comments to consider.

I recently became aware of the basic income concept. In some ways it's not unlike Milton Friedman's idea of throwing money from a helicopter. That is, it may be more efficient to simply distribute money to society in a bulk fashion rather than parse the same amount of funds via myriad programs which may have large degrees of inefficiency and fraud.

I haven't taken time to read all the reference articles mentioned in the posts above. I'm interested in knowing more about the pilot program in Canada. The story I heard on NPR recently referred to a similar pilot program in a small community on the continent of Africa (I think). It seemed to me the pilot program mentioned on NPR was short enough duration that it may be difficult to understand the long-term outcome.

There are people in my own family (cousins, nieces, nephews, etc.) that I suspect would love to receive a basic income even though the idea would be a foreign concept to their ancestors. For some reason many in the younger generations don't seem to be able to increase the size of their pie and the common belief is somebody else controls the size of the pie.

Anyone have other links/references they want to provide? Looks like I have quite a bit of reading to do.


on edit: It appears Scott Santen's crowdfunding idea is fully funded at just over $1000 per month and he has pledged to generously contribute any amount over his goal to other Patreon funding requests.
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:43 AM   #60
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There are lots of stories (and even a Wikipedia entry) on the Canadian experiment, but here's one: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the...riment-dauphin
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