BMW introducing electric car

[aja8888]

Passenger car diesels are becoming more and more accepted here in the U.S. since the engines have been refined to the point of almost no noticeable deisel clatter, the use of turbo charging to provide high torque at low RPMs, and the very clean exhaust emissions. In 2009, the Jetta diesel was awarded the "clean car of the year award" in the U.S.

Also, the EPA passed and completed the phase in of clean diesel fuel; less that 15 parts per million sulfur content vs 500 PPM or higher previously. Also, biodiesel is gaining popularity as an alternative fuel for these cars (as a blend in the newer ones).

So the auto landscape is changing in the U.S. with more hybrids, diesels, pure electrics, and even more efficient gasoline only alternatives available. It's all good!

 

[explanade]

You are right it is Mercedes, which frankly explains some things like the limited capability. Although why BMW, who generally makes nice looking cars, came up with this design is a mystery.

The target is clearly the Volt, Leaf, and the Ford Fusion Energi. My friend has the Ford and she is pretty happy with it. Still the BMW like all the others is overpriced compared to a other cars in their class,with no real redeeming features other than the Greenness.

Yeah the Volt is over $40k and it's build quality and finish is more like a $20k car, I've heard.

But aren't there like tax credits and such to bring the price down on these things?

If it has things like bluetooth, HID and navigation (though the GPS built-ins are not that good, the built in screen in the center of the console could have other uses) included for the base price, then it may be viable.

If it's barebones for $42k, then after you get the various packages, it's probably more like $50-55k?

That's a lot for basically a commute car.

Then again, most people will be fine with the 100 mile range for daily driving but will people pay up to $60k (after taxes and fees) for a commute car?

Not exactly a LBYM choice, is it?

 

[explanade]

Passenger car diesels are becoming more and more accepted here in the U.S. since the engines have been refined to the point of almost no noticeable deisel clatter, the use of turbo charging to provide high torque at low RPMs, and the very clean exhaust emissions. In 2009, the Jetta diesel was awarded the "clean car of the year award" in the U.S.

Also, the EPA passed and completed the phase in of clean diesel fuel; less that 15 parts per million sulfur content vs 500 PPM or higher previously. Also, biodiesel is gaining popularity as an alternative fuel for these cars (as a blend in the newer ones).

So the auto landscape is changing in the U.S. with more hybrids, diesels, pure electrics, and even more efficient gasoline only alternatives available. It's all good!

I've also driven a lot of rented diesels in Europe. Good mileage and performance, especially on the low end.

But I've heard diesel trucks implicated in respiratory problems of children living near Long Beach port, which gets a lot of truck traffic.

Maybe commercial trucks doesn't have the stringent emissions standards as cars?

In the past, there's been talk about clear diesels but the fuel apparently costs more to make.

Some are pushing for natural gas cars, because with the fracking revolution, natural gas is cheap, unless you happen to live near the sites where they drill and get your water contaminated.

 

[aja8888]

I've also driven a lot of rented diesels in Europe. Good mileage and performance, especially on the low end.

But I've heard diesel trucks implicated in respiratory problems of children living near Long Beach port, which gets a lot of truck traffic.

Maybe commercial trucks doesn't have the stringent emissions standards as cars?

In the past, there's been talk about clear diesels but the fuel apparently costs more to make.

Some are pushing for natural gas cars, because with the fracking revolution, natural gas is cheap, unless you happen to live near the sites where they drill and get your water contaminated.

Emissions for truck engines are regulated by EPA but have been less stringent than for cars. That is changing and will continue to do so. Truckers are notorious for removing pollution control devices from their engines.

There is no additional real cost to make diesel from crude oil other than the addition of a lubricity additive and the application of federal and state taxes, which are higher than for gasoline (politics involved). A barrel of crude oil makes a bit less diesel fraction than gasoline, but gasoline has more final additives. It's a number game and taxes rule out in the end.

Natural gas powered vehicles have been around for a long time (buses, commercial vehicles, etc). Honda has been selling a Civic that is natural gas powered. What missing for mass use are filling stations and ways to deliver liquid natural gas to those locations.

 

[explanade]

Right, and the EV makers are trying to work on an infrastructure of charge stations while there is no similar movement for natural gas.

Instead, natural gas may be more for replacing coal in electricity generation.

 

[aja8888]

Right, and the EV makers are trying to work on an infrastructure of charge stations while there is no similar movement for natural gas.

Instead, natural gas may be more for replacing coal in electricity generation.

Yes, the task of developing an infrastructure for U.S. refueling of natural gas vehicles is decades away as it would have to be privately funded. The process has been slow, but it is gaining momentum. Here is a map of CNG locations in the states:

CNG Stations | Refueling | Prices | Map

And yes, power plants are moving to NG fuels, especially in the area of plants that have peak load increasing capabilities as they can ramp up an additional generator quickly with NG vs. coal.

 

[Chuckanut]

Now that Chrysler is owned by Fiat, I would think they would take advantage of Fiat's knowledge of diesel engines to equip some of their American cars with these engines. As far as I know, Chrysler does not offer a hybrid. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I was a former Chrysler guy and would love to see them succeed. One of the best cars I ever owned was a '96 Plymouth Grand Voyager.

 

[explanade]

The other thing, which I'm not sure will ever take, is self-driving cars.

Supposedly the cars will communicate with each other and park themselves, show up when summoned from your smart phone as needed.

So there won't be traffic jams and thus, fuel efficiency will increase.

People invest so much money and sometimes self worth into cars that I wonder if they'd be content just to be passengers, to have cars become conveyances for getting from point A to B and little else.

 

[aja8888]

Now that Chrysler is owned by Fiat, I would think they would take advantage of Fiat's knowledge of diesel engines to equip some of their American cars with these engines. As far as I know, Chrysler does not offer a hybrid. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I was a former Chrysler guy and would love to see them succeed. One of the best cars I ever owned was a '96 Plymouth Grand Voyager.

Ask and you shall receive: in 2014 Chrysler will offer a diesel in the Ram and a 9 speed transmission in the jeep:

Chrysler to introduce new diesel engine, 4x4 system, and 9-speed transmission across its range - NY Daily News

 

[aja8888]

The other thing, which I'm not sure will ever take, is self-driving cars.

Supposedly the cars will communicate with each other and park themselves, show up when summoned from your smart phone as needed.

So there won't be traffic jams and thus, fuel efficiency will increase.

People invest so much money and sometimes self worth into cars that I wonder if they'd be content just to be passengers, to have cars become conveyances for getting from point A to B and little else.

I'm sure it being worked on somewhere.....(self driving cars)

 

[ERD50]

The other thing, which I'm not sure will ever take, is self-driving cars. ...

Interesting, but that is a big step, with lots of liabilities.

Heck, I'd be happy if we got 'smart traffic lights'. It sure seems that so many times the light is red, holding up some cars when there is zero cross traffic. Then, just as some cross traffic approaches, the light turns and makes them stop. We've got some busy intersections around here with cameras, and often the left green arrow is far too short to allow the backed up traffic to get through. And if there is no one in the left turn lane, it's a waste to make others wait.

I wonder how much gas and time that would save. Could be safer too, as people really push to get through that green/yellow/"honest officer, it was yellow when I entered the intersection"-red left turn arrow.

-ERD50

 

[ziggy29]

In this area (Texas), I have only seen a few pure electric cars on the road since they became available. I have seen a few Volt's, one Leaf and no Telsa's. Hybrids are all over the place and I mainly see Toyota and GM brands (Prius, Yukon). Ford must be late to the party around here. But boy, do we have the pickup's!

Pure electrics are pretty impractical in mostly rural areas when you often have to drive 50+ miles each way to conduct your business. And until they can get well over 100 miles in a charge and can recharge most of their battery power in a few minutes or less -- at a relatively affordable price point after enough people pay the "early adopter tax" -- they will remain that way.

 

[Koolau]

Interesting, but that is a big step, with lots of liabilities.

Heck, I'd be happy if we got 'smart traffic lights'. It sure seems that so many times the light is red, holding up some cars when there is zero cross traffic. Then, just as some cross traffic approaches, the light turns and makes them stop. We've got some busy intersections around here with cameras, and often the left green arrow is far too short to allow the backed up traffic to get through. And if there is no one in the left turn lane, it's a waste to make others wait.

I wonder how much gas and time that would save. Could be safer too, as people really push to get through that green/yellow/"honest officer, it was yellow when I entered the intersection"-red left turn arrow.

-ERD50

Stupid "smart-lights" are one of my pet peeves. We often traverse a 6 or 7 mile stretch of coast road (no substitute available). It often takes 20 to 25 minutes - primarily because of the "stupid-smart-lights". One day, as happens occasionally on our island, the power went out in a wide area and all the lights were down (no flashing red lights at every intersection - just dead!) Traffic regulated itself. No one was stuck at a cross street ( they simply blended when there was an opening.) Folks didn't suddenly slow to a crawl. They just drove and blended. It was a beautiful thing. Total travel time was less than 15 minutes. So if "god" (or the crumbling infrastructure) can improve travel times, think what traffic engineers could do to improve things. Imagine the fuel savings when folks aren't playing stop-light-grand-prix. YMMV

 

[Midpack]

Passenger car diesels are becoming more and more accepted here in the U.S. since the engines have been refined to the point of almost no noticeable deisel clatter, the use of turbo charging to provide high torque at low RPMs, and the very clean exhaust emissions. In 2009, the Jetta diesel was awarded the "clean car of the year award" in the U.S.

Also, the EPA passed and completed the phase in of clean diesel fuel; less that 15 parts per million sulfur content vs 500 PPM or higher previously. Also, biodiesel is gaining popularity as an alternative fuel for these cars (as a blend in the newer ones).

So the auto landscape is changing in the U.S. with more hybrids, diesels, pure electrics, and even more efficient gasoline only alternatives available. It's all good!

Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Exciting stuff, but when looking at overall low emissions, diesels still can’t compete with hybrids. It’s a big milestone for a diesel to pass California’s Tier 2, Bin 5 standards, but that’s still only about average for a new vehicle. Meanwhile, the squeakiest of squeaky-clean standards is the SULEV, reserved for the Toyota Prius, Honda Civic Hybrid, and a handful of other vehicles including the conventional version of the Volkswagen Jetta.

I'd still rather have a hybrid for mileage and emissions. Even though diesels can offer high mpg, in general diesel emissions are 15-20 times that of ICE engines, so choose carefully if emissions are a consideration. YMMV
Volkswagen Jetta TDI

 

[aja8888]

, in general diesel emissions are 15-20 times that of ICE engines, so choose carefully if emissions are a consideration. YMMV
Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Not for any diesel automobiles sold in the U.S. since 2009 when the standards changed. They now meet Tier II BIN 5 standards like all gasoline vehicles.

Plus, PM emissions for gasoline cars are on the horizon for particulates and that will mean particulate filters and regen cycles, lowering MPG.

VW Jetta TDI meets Tier 2/Bin 5 emissions standard - Rumor Central

Volkswagen's 2009 Jetta TDI Clean Diesel Awarded Green Car of the Year

 

[Chuckanut]

Thanks for the information on the 2014 diesel machines offered by Chrysler.

When comparing mileage be sure to adjust for the fact that diesel fuel contains about 11% more energy than non-ethanol gasoline.

 

[Koolau]

Thanks for the information on the 2014 diesel machines offered by Chrysler.

When comparing mileage be sure to adjust for the fact that diesel fuel contains about 11% more energy than non-ethanol gasoline.

It's true that diesel is more energy dense than regular gasoline and especially more dense than "gasohol". I would politely suggest that a better comparison would be to "pump price" for diesel. Most places, diesel has been running significantly higher prices than gasoline. IOW cost/mile would be more useful to me than mile/gallon. Just my way of looking at it as YMMV.

 

[ERD50]

Thanks for the information on the 2014 diesel machines offered by Chrysler.

When comparing mileage be sure to adjust for the fact that diesel fuel contains about 11% more energy than non-ethanol gasoline.

But you don't really need to adjust for that - you buy both by the gallon. An advantage of a diesel engine is that it can use that denser BTU fuel. If you are trying to measure the raw efficiency of a diesel engine versus a gasoline engine, then yes, you adjust for BTU content in, power out.


But diesel is more expensive these days, so that should be taken into account n any financial analysis.

_ERD50

 

[clifp]

I'm sure it being worked on somewhere.....(self driving cars)

Google has a pretty massive project a dozen cars more than 500K miles of mostly accident free driving. (They had one rear ender, and one time when the car was being driven by human he had an accident.)

Self driving cars are legal in 3 states, NV, FL, and CA.

Currently the equipment for the GoogleCars cost $150K sensitive radar system. However this years winner of the top prize in the Intel International Science was 19 year Romanian student who developed a car driving system using webcams that can be built for $4k

Realistically most of us on the forum, should stop driving in the next 20 to 45 years. Now how many of us will give up our license voluntarily, especially us guys, is an open question.

I am pretty excited about the technology because I think it will allow me to remind independent without endangering other. This is Google video is good demo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdgQpa1pUUE

 

[ziggy29]

Google has a pretty massive project a dozen cars more than 500K miles of mostly accident free driving. (They had one rear ender, and one time when the car was being driven by human he had an accident.)

Self driving cars are legal in 3 states, NV, FL, and CA

....

I am pretty excited about the technology because I think it will allow me to remind independent without endangering other. This is Google video is good demo.

Question: will it become legal for drunks to operate self-driving cars? If not, I'd suggest on some level that the technology may not be ready. Because if it were, this would be similar to taking a cab home with a sober cabbie, and potentially even safer.

 

[samclem]

Question: will it become legal for drunks to operate self-driving cars? If not, I'd suggest on some level that the technology may not be ready. Because if it were, this would be similar to taking a cab home with a sober cabbie, and potentially even safer.

I don't know the legal status, but once these cars go mainstream it would seem to me that it should be illegal for an "impaired driver" to operate the vehicle but perfectly okay to be in the back seat.

 

[Midpack]

Not for any diesel automobiles sold in the U.S. since 2009 when the standards changed. They now meet Tier II BIN 5 standards like all gasoline vehicles.

Sure about that? From everything I've read each carmakers fleet must meet Tier II Bin 5, not each vehicle. Just one of three sources I found with Google:

EPA's newest standards, called "Tier 2," provide auto manufacturers with an array of emissions standards they can choose for any particular vehicle model, as long as all the new vehicles they sell in a given model year fall below a required average (bin 5).

Frequent Questions | Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA
Not all diesels match the Jetta TDI, that was all I was saying.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

Now that we are enjoying our Prius V, I wouldn't consider a diesel. Especially that diesel fuel is about $.50 a gallon higher than gasoline. Another thing I can't figure since it takes less to refine diesel than it does gasoline. I'll have to talk to my nephew who is working with the diesel hybrid for over the road semi trucks. Right now they have them in smaller fleets trucks like FedEx.

 

[samclem]

Now that we are enjoying our Prius V, I wouldn't consider a diesel. Especially that diesel fuel is about $.50 a gallon higher than gasoline. Another thing I can't figure since it takes less to refine diesel than it does gasoline.

I've heard (not confirmed) that the relative price of diesel vs gasoline is not so tightly linked to the cost of production as it is to supply and demand. European government policies artificially inflate demand for diesel. Again, that's not a fully researched answer.

Based on the energy content, from a technical standpoint diesel is worth a little more.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

I've heard (not confirmed) that the relative price of diesel vs gasoline is not so tightly linked to the cost of production as it is to supply and demand. European government policies artificially inflate demand for diesel. Again, that's not a fully researched answer.

Yes, I believe that supply/demand is also part of the equation.