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Old 07-08-2007, 07:15 AM   #21
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Hey Sam, can you point me to the posters here on ER where they believe that national health care would be "FREE"? Do you really think one-liners like your post add anything to the debate?

I got news for you, if we get nationalized health care it won't be FREE. Just like the trillions of dollars wasted by the military aren't FREE, and the national highway system isn't FREE and public school system isn't FREE, and Medicaid and Medicare isn't FREE and police department coverage isn't FREE and fire departments aren't FREE.

Now if we could just get back the estimated $1,400,000,000,000 we have or will piss away in IRAQ, we could have our FREE national health care.
I for one have tried to stay out of political threads these days here, however saw the movie and was impressed. Now for sams one liners, I really wonder why he would be against a march of some magnitude to washington to deliver the worthless politicians here in america a wake up call!!

I am ready to go to washington on Labor Day. Anyone else? The fact that we allow the health care system to be run for profit is a crime.

Screw the HMO CEOs! Wake up america take back our country!
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Old 07-08-2007, 09:17 AM   #22
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A national universal health care system could be funded via a 'managed' account separate from the general account with the source of revenue being like a FICA component in the corporate and personal tax system. IOW, it should be transparent so that the users (general public at large) know how much of their taxes is required to support it. And a 'financial statement' would be published each year with performance benchmarks showing how well the system is working and where the money is spent.
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Old 07-08-2007, 09:48 AM   #23
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I am ready to go to washington on Labor Day. Anyone else? The fact that we allow the health care system to be run for profit is a crime.
Call the Institute for Healthcare Improvement (Institute for Healthcare Improvement: Home). They have been coming around to the conclusion that a universal health care system is the only way to go. While they work at the policy level, sometimes a critical mass of public demand can add the spark for change.
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:08 PM   #24
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I got news for you, if we get nationalized health care it won't be FREE.
It's not news to me. On the other hand, when an individual receiving a service is insulated from its true cost, the situation is ripe for artificial shortages/rationing. BTW, this de-linking of the patient from the cost of the services is also a problem with the present US health care system.

I might be strongly in favor of a march if anyone could describe exactly what result the demonstration is intended to accomplish. End the employer-based insurance (actually--payment) system ? (yes!). Socialized medicine ("single payer") with no allowance for the free market option? (no, thanks). I'm not sure "waking up the politicians" is really smart, unless we know what they might do once they stumble out of bed. Some of the "good ideas" are clearly worse (IMO) than the present , very flawed, patchwork.
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Old 07-08-2007, 11:30 PM   #25
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It's not news to me. On the other hand, when an individual receiving a service is insulated from its true cost, the situation is ripe for artificial shortages/rationing. BTW, this de-linking of the patient from the cost of the services is also a problem with the present US health care system.
Kind of like that abortion we have going on in Iraq?...I for one think that everyone should get a bill each month for their full cost of the previous months war, including the future cost for caring for the families and injured left behind during the month...wonder how long the war would continue when people suddenly realized it wasn't FREE.

Then again, there is always plenty of money for war...
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:41 AM   #26
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there is always plenty of money for war...
Yep.. and then the wingers point to Walter Reed as a bad example of Universal Health Care as opposed to the clearest example ever of what is wrong with America's priorities as expressed by the current system: lots of money for breaking; not so much for fixing. (And of course at Walter Reed they had handed much over to private contractors.)
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:19 AM   #27
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Yep.. and then the wingers point to Walter Reed as a bad example of Universal Health Care as opposed to the clearest example ever of what is wrong with America's priorities as expressed by the current system: lots of money for breaking; not so much for fixing. (And of course at Walter Reed they had handed much over to private contractors.)

That is correct, walter reed was given to PRIVATE ENTERPRIZZZZEEEE!!!!
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Old 07-09-2007, 08:17 AM   #28
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That is correct, walter reed was given to PRIVATE ENTERPRIZZZZEEEE!!!!
Wasn't the government still responsible for monitoring the private enterprise? Seems like the govt is responsible for any failures in either case.

-ERD50
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:02 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by samclem
It's not news to me. On the other hand, when an individual receiving a service is insulated from its true cost, the situation is ripe for artificial shortages/rationing. BTW, this de-linking of the patient from the cost of the services is also a problem with the present US health care system.

Kind of like that abortion we have going on in Iraq?
Well, not exactly. The people receiving the services of the US in Iraq are the Iraqi people and various terrorist/insurgent elements. Unfortunately, it is likely impractical to provide the insurgents/terrorists a bill for the services we are providing. As an aside, we also have a devil of time collecting customer feedback ("Did you find US forces provided timely, accurate firepower when engaging you and your terrorist associates?" "Would you likely call on the United States again when requiring the delivery of a PGM to your rat-infested hideout?").

There are sure a lot of folks who claim to be interested in health care who drag national security questions into the mix at every opportunity. I wonder what their real agenda is.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:30 AM   #30
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But its funny how all of them are wound up to make you feel bad about being an american.
Hmm, maybe (just maybe) that's because Moore realizes that being
"proud to be an American" doesn't just mean you've stuck some stupid
bumper sticker on your car, but rather that you realize that we really
ARE the best country in the world, so we oughta CARE about some of
the really f*cked-up stuff about our country and DO something about it !
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Old 07-09-2007, 12:29 PM   #31
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I for one have tried to stay out of political threads these days here, however saw the movie and was impressed. Now for sams one liners, I really wonder why he would be against a march of some magnitude to washington to deliver the worthless politicians here in america a wake up call!!

I am ready to go to washington on Labor Day. Anyone else? The fact that we allow the health care system to be run for profit is a crime.

Screw the HMO CEOs! Wake up america take back our country!
while marches can be inspiring - they often don't amount to much polictical action and take a heck of a lot of work/energy/resources to organize - so perhaps he wants that work/energy/resources to be used in other ways?

then again, there hasn't been one lately where the majority were older white guys who tend to vote...that might shake'm up...

ooor, a protest of campaign contributor's tearing up their checks at a march - that would be funny - watch the politicians leap into the air to try and salvage those...
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Old 07-09-2007, 01:13 PM   #32
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Well, not exactly. The people receiving the services of the US in Iraq are the Iraqi people and various terrorist/insurgent elements. Unfortunately, it is likely impractical to provide the insurgents/terrorists a bill for the services we are providing. As an aside, we also have a devil of time collecting customer feedback ("Did you find US forces provided timely, accurate firepower when engaging you and your terrorist associates?" "Would you likely call on the United States again when requiring the delivery of a PGM to your rat-infested hideout?").

There are sure a lot of folks who claim to be interested in health care who drag national security questions into the mix at every opportunity. I wonder what their real agenda is.
First off, the Iraqi people aren't on the hook for the bill...the american taxpayers are, so I have no idea what you are talking about billing Iraqis..smells like a red-herring to me though...nice try confusing the subject.

Second, whats the real agenda? Its to expose the hypocritical neo-cons/republicans that complain about the "cost" of some social service that would provide real, tangible improvements in peoples live, and at the same time are happy to squander away trillions, upon trillions of dollars for wars that should never happened in the first place; never once questioning the cost benefit of such wasteful operations.

Why is it that people don't mind spending a few trillion dollars for killing people in some far off place, but put up a stink when a few hundred billion could be spent saving lives in this country?
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Old 07-09-2007, 01:33 PM   #33
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The role of the US government as outlined in the Constitution is a helpful starting point for understanding why people view some expenditues as valid ad others as not valid. The word "defense" shows up a few times in the Constitution, along with "war", "Army", and "Navy". The terms "hospital", "health care", "fix my bunions" are curiously absent. Folks who want the government (i.e. other taxpayers) to provide health care, free circuses, etc have had to bend the "promote the general welfare" clause in ways that would have been hooted down immediately by the framers of the constitution.
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:20 PM   #34
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The role of the US government as outlined in the Constitution is a helpful starting point for understanding why people view some expenditues as valid ad others as not valid. The word "defense" shows up a few times in the Constitution, along with "war", "Army", and "Navy". The terms "hospital", "health care", "fix my bunions" are curiously absent. Folks who want the government (i.e. other taxpayers) to provide health care, free circuses, etc have had to bend the "promote the general welfare" clause in ways that would have been hooted down immediately by the framers of the constitution.
Why is that? "To Promote the General Welfare" in even the the most strict sense would be to support policies to keep the country and people healthy, safe, happy, and prospering. How is devising a rational health care system contrary to this?

welfare definition - Dictionary - MSN Encarta

OTOH, you would have to bend the "Provide for the Common Defense" clause like a pretzel to justify this Iraq debacle. Very little defense about it as far as I can see.


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Old 07-09-2007, 05:27 PM   #35
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Its also worthwhile to note that when the constitution was written, prescription drugs and modern medical care didnt exist.

Back then, leeches and a nice amputation to get rid of the gangrene were about the best you could get.

Not something to ponder long about incorporating into your country's documents of formation.
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Old 07-09-2007, 05:54 PM   #36
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Its also worthwhile to note that when the constitution was written, prescription drugs and modern medical care didnt exist.

Back then, leeches and a nice amputation to get rid of the gangrene were about the best you could get.

Not something to ponder long about incorporating into your country's documents of formation.


In contrast, piracy on the high seas was a big problem in the 1780s so it is directly addressed in the constitution.

There is no question among constitutional scholars that the broad power to levy taxes and expend funds to provide for the general welfare gives the legislature power to do things like establish social security programs, medicare, and it it chose, national health care.
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:08 PM   #37
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In contrast, piracy on the high seas was a big problem in the 1780s so it is directly addressed in the constitution.

ARRR!
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:13 PM   #38
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People, people. Everyone knows that the best defense is a good offense.
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:27 PM   #39
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I'm really afraid, of whats ahead for this country. i.e. -- A Government and Politicians, we don't trust. Poverty, Medical Care issues, Immigration, to name a few. The people in Washington really, don't seem too concerned. They, have taken all steps necessary, to insure their well being. I'm not to sure, they realize, this country's future is at stake. Their inability, to stand up and perform, is destroying this country.

In five years, I may be sharing food from a dumpster, with a terrorist.

It's Sad, that this country has come to this point. Voter apathy, electing the pretty face with the most campaign dollars, hidden agendas, lies, do not contribute to getting us outta this mess!
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:32 PM   #40
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[quote=farmerEd;533533]Hey Sam, can you point me to the posters here on ER where they believe that national health care would be "FREE"? Do you really think one-liners like your post add anything to the debate?"

He is not always the voice of reason I am afraid.
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