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Old 09-18-2016, 09:44 AM   #41
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"I know they're calling you names, punching you, stealing your lunch money, and ruining your homework, but that's just the way it is. Suck it up!"

That's really about the dumbest thing I've ever heard...
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Old 09-18-2016, 10:02 AM   #42
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Today the police are involved in every little incident. I am a coach, and if I ask a 30-40 member group of my high school team to raise their hand if they have EVER been in a fight, not one will. They will tell me they are not allowed.

All I can think is the future will be really screwed up with these guys in charge, or the world might be a better place. And I just do not know which.


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Old 09-18-2016, 10:37 AM   #43
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I saw this in Facebook and think it's the way to handle the problem.
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Old 09-18-2016, 10:46 AM   #44
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A huge problem. My petite grade school daughter was a target. I was ready to take her to krav maga classes since the administrators did nothing. Dw stumbled across a more effective solution. She groused about the situation on Facebook and when the principal had to deal with the start of a scandal things changed fast.

Personally I would have preferred she deliver a solid beating to the culprits, but in the schools today that comes with a heavy price.
I had a similar response to ponyboy's bizarre analysis. Even 50 yrs ago when I was in school defending yourself got you treated like a criminal. Everything was "Lowest common denominator." I was never bullied in the sense we are speaking of here but I saw it all around. My father who was a cop was very very loud about "Staying out of trouble" because he "didn't want the aggravation." The one time I was force to jump some ape and risk my own beating I was more afraid of him finding out than getting beaten.

And teachers (highly authoritarian Catholic school) were sh1t. Whatever happened it was your fault. NOBODY wanted to know what happened. But of course the reality was they always knew who the criminal elements were and simply did not want to do the hard work. Blame everybody. Boys will be boys. Nice work if you can get it. Nowadays I suppose there would be lawyers involved
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Old 09-18-2016, 01:45 PM   #45
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I just looked up "nerfing" and it now seems to mean "making everyday experiences ridiculously safe" .

I first pictured some hotshoes ramming each other on a dirt oval...
I guess I am approaching the point where all my expressions have been converted by pop culture into something else. Danger may loom ahead.

Bullies are cowards, but my guess is that there is a lot of over diagnosis as some have already said.
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Old 09-18-2016, 01:52 PM   #46
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Thanks for the thumbs up on Chicago. Been thinking of visiting but was concerned about safety there. Now I know I wouldn't have to worry.
Yes, you're all "growed up" now and likely have less to worry about from childhood bullying. Keep an eye out for getting robbed or murdered though. Chicago's crime rate is right up there........
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Old 09-18-2016, 02:23 PM   #47
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I saw this in Facebook and think it's the way to handle the problem.
Good theory but not adaquate.

Nothing wrong with passing anti-bullying laws anymore than anti-stealing laws.

Teach kids to stand up for themselves? Fine. But now you'll have to let them stand up for themselves. The "establishment" will always tell you that but never permit it. They will tell you how they cannot tell the diff between the bully and the victorious victim. Off with both their heads.

And what about those not able to stand up for themselves. Bullies do not pick on the strong. They pick on the weak. Know why? They don't like consequences. Not from the victim and not from the "grow-ups" They do it because they know they can get away with it. They also travel in packs as has been mentioned previously. Everybody has to travel with a Posse.

Why not have parents and teachers teach and demand acceptable behavior WITH consequences, instead of being the constant Weasel Class. This is not The Jungle. Laws of the jungle have been suspended. Or at least the Means and Methods of the Jungle are no longer operative.
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Old 09-18-2016, 03:06 PM   #48
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Many of the comments here seem to be trivializing bullying. Bullying is a very real issue for kids (and sometimes adults) who are different. For many kids who are gay, or kids who belong to a racial/religious/ethnic minority in their school or neighborhood, childhood can be hell or even dangerous because of bullying.
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Old 09-18-2016, 03:50 PM   #49
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Many of the comments here seem to be trivializing bullying.
Yes, I agree. Many of the posters seem to be under the impression that all/most victims can physically and emotionally stand up for themselves. In fact, most can not. Bullies typically know how to select and isolate the victim before beginning the torture.
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Bullying is a very real issue for kids (and sometimes adults) who are different. For many kids who are gay, or kids who belong to a racial/religious/ethnic minority in their school or neighborhood, childhood can be hell or even dangerous because of bullying.
Yes, again. And you're omitting an important category: mentally or physically handicapped kids, bullies favorite targets.
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Old 09-18-2016, 07:35 PM   #50
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Good theory but not adaquate.

Nothing wrong with passing anti-bullying laws anymore than anti-stealing laws.

Teach kids to stand up for themselves? Fine. But now you'll have to let them stand up for themselves. The "establishment" will always tell you that but never permit it. They will tell you how they cannot tell the diff between the bully and the victorious victim. Off with both their heads.

And what about those not able to stand up for themselves. Bullies do not pick on the strong. They pick on the weak. Know why? They don't like consequences. Not from the victim and not from the "grow-ups" They do it because they know they can get away with it. They also travel in packs as has been mentioned previously. Everybody has to travel with a Posse.

Why not have parents and teachers teach and demand acceptable behavior WITH consequences, instead of being the constant Weasel Class. This is not The Jungle. Laws of the jungle have been suspended. Or at least the Means and Methods of the Jungle are no longer operative.
That is a big 'ol +1000000 right there.

Right now the NEA types have it their way: if anything happens they can hose down both the bully and the target and keep themselves nice and clean. They parrot the nonsense zero tolerance line and generally seek to cover up any problems as much as possible rather than deal with them. My daughter's school is within spitting distance of two high schools which had extremely high profile events where the bullied showed up with firearms and settled hash in a terminal way, the whole district has formal anti-bullying programs, and yet when push came to shove it was union member CYA all the way when we had an issue. Frankly, if my kids have an issue into high school it will be krav maga classes and if it gets to that point the bullies will have to deal with me. I can afford lawyers and would have no compunctions about delivering a beating, legal or otherwise.
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Old 09-18-2016, 10:09 PM   #51
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That is a big 'ol +1000000 right there.

Right now the NEA types have it their way: if anything happens they can hose down both the bully and the target and keep themselves nice and clean. They parrot the nonsense zero tolerance line and generally seek to cover up any problems as much as possible rather than deal with them. My daughter's school is within spitting distance of two high schools which had extremely high profile events where the bullied showed up with firearms and settled hash in a terminal way, the whole district has formal anti-bullying programs, and yet when push came to shove it was union member CYA all the way when we had an issue. Frankly, if my kids have an issue into high school it will be krav maga classes and if it gets to that point the bullies will have to deal with me. I can afford lawyers and would have no compunctions about delivering a beating, legal or otherwise.

Thanks for the "+" but as I wouldn't rope the NEA types only. As I stated earlier I went to a very draconian, Catholic school. All about "responsibility" and "punishment". Except where they were concerned. School was the great bright light that showed me you can't trust any person, group, or institution.
Liars and turds. That kind of behavior is at least as inbred as any innate tendency for young human specimens to bully.

Whenever my brother, who still lives back east, sends me an obit of some teacher we remember, I feel only joy and see the only tragedy was that they lived as long as they did.
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Old 09-19-2016, 01:40 AM   #52
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Bullying, within the school systems in our area, seems to be an emotional hot button word that makes administrators drop everything and give your child immediate attention. Want your child's problem to be taken seriously? Tell the school he/she is being bullied.
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:34 AM   #53
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Too many people seem to think there is a simple answer, punch back, stand your ground, etc. and that parents these days are too involved, calling active involved parents, "helicopter parents." Pediatricians like "helicopter parents." Their kids generally do not poison themselves with household products or medications or drown in the family hot tub while mom answers the phone. Underinvolved parents are a bigger problem. Parents too busy with their own problems, alcohol, drugs, their own drama and addictions. Their kids are abused or ignored, which is a kind of abuse. Parents are supposed to raise their children. Children left to raise themselves make too many big mistakes. Many of those kids become the attention-getting bullies.

Schoolyard bullies target small INTJ type kids, who don't hang out with lots of friends. Their targets are doing nothing wrong. The targets do not hang around in gangs, and must turn to the teachers, administrators and parents as their back up. Targets may be a different race, gay, transgender, or have a disability, or may be smart but small. So many people here seem to think a punch in the face or fighting fixes bullying. What if the target cannot or doesn't want to fight?

The targets of bullies are not necessarily weaker; they are often the more competent and successful. The target is taken by surprise when he/she is bullied. The target would prefer to go about his business and get the schoolwork or the job done, or play by the rules and be fair, and along comes a disruptive bully who lacks self esteem and knows the target is more successful and is held in higher regard. The bully needs to win at all costs.

This occurs in the adult realm, often with dire consequences, in workplace bullying and even between nations. Look at ISIS and North Korea and the like and who they target. Terrorists target first world countries, and capitals and market places and luxury hotels of the less successful countries. They go after what they perceive to be the competent and the successful.

People resort to bullying ad hominem attacks and fighting when they cannot win through reason and logic; when they feel like they are losing in the world.

Fortunately we are finally beginning to recognize and deal with adult bullying. Having been a target myself, I know it made me physically ill and created much stress and career damage.

Bullying is a huge problem and there are no easy answers. But we are making progress as a society. When I was bullied at work in 2004 I lost my job. Now, anti-bullying (workplace bullying) legislation has been introduced in 30 states.

The link below is to a website I found in 2004 that was a huge help to me at the time.

http://www.workplacebullying.org


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Old 09-19-2016, 09:00 AM   #54
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Here's an interesting write up in Psychology Today including bullying as an example of everyday sadism:

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There are several personality types that are more likely to harm another than the average person would. Sadists possess an intrinsic motivation to inflict suffering on innocent others, even when this comes at a personal cost. This is because for sadistic personalities, cruelty is pleasurable, generally exciting, and can be sexually stimulating.

In a recent study, Buckels and colleagues examined examples of everyday sadism as part of what they refer to as the “Dark Tetrad,” sadism plus the original members of the “Dark Triad”—psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism. These personalities have some overlap and are characterized by callous manipulation, self-centeredness, disagreeableness, and exploitation.
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Most of us will encounter an "everyday sadist"—someone who actively seeks to cause us emotional pain. Given the potential for overlap among sadism, narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism, for the purposes of the below we will refer to anyone who purposefully causes emotional harm as an everyday sadist, or ES. The actions of an ES can range from the petty to the severe.
Common examples of everyday sadism include:
  • Intentionally repeating secrets that the ES promised to keep private
  • Portraying someone in a false or unflattering light in an effort to damage their reputation
  • Working to bring about someone’s being fired or otherwise jeopardize their job in the absence of cause
  • Seeking to ruin another person's relationship
  • Theft of property—physical, financial, or intellectual
  • Deliberately marginalizing a coworker, classmate, or family member, or student
  • Cyber or other bullying
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-personalities

As long as folks don't "play nice", sadly there will always be bullies which aren't only in childhood playgrounds. Many bullies as kids end up being bullies as adults .
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:22 AM   #55
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I honestly don't ever recall being bullied. I feel very fortunate. I don't think my kids were either. Again, thank you Lord.
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:27 AM   #56
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I think kids need to know that the parents will always have their back--if not, who can they go to when they believe they are being attacked? Nothing wrong with children being the most important things in their parents' lives. I would hope the parents explain to their children why they want the children to resolve bullying on their own, as a start, but even then I hope the kids know mom and dad are going to take it from there if that doesn't work.
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Old 09-19-2016, 12:21 PM   #57
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What drives me crazy today is seeing the helicopter parents. Where I live, they drive their kids to the corner where the school bus stops, even if that's only about 100 feet. They either sit in the car with the kid, or walk around while the kid has to sit in the car until the bus comes.

Same thing in the afternoon when the bus drops the kid off 100 feet from their door. It's insane IMHO.
+1

This is a perfect example of how so many parents nowadays are driven by wildly overblown, irrational fears that have been perpetrated by the media for the past 20 odd years. Violent crime peaked in this country in 1993 and has dramatically and steadily fallen since, but you'd think we were living in a world full of fiendish, murderous child molesters lurking around every corner and behind every bush, judging by the helicoptering of today's parents. I for one feel really fortunate to have grown up in the 70s and 80s where kids were allowed to roam around the neighborhood and just be kids and experience and learn about the world in a natural, minimally sheltered way.
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Old 09-19-2016, 12:23 PM   #58
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Bullies should be disciplined and removed from school if they persist.
^ - This, but sadly schools don't seem willing or able to do this. The other side of the coin is bullies rarely learn it on their own. There is usually something going on at home or somewhere or has in the past. This doesn't excuse it, but sometimes they can be turned around if the cause can be found and corrected.

I teach my kids and others to first reach out to an adult or other superior (and hopefully to me). If that doesn't work defend yourself.
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Old 09-19-2016, 12:56 PM   #59
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.......kids were allowed to roam around the neighborhood and just be kids and experience and learn about the world in a natural, minimally sheltered way.
OT

Reminded me of when, in the late 1940s/early 1950s, I'd visit my grandmother, in a relatively small country town, and take off for the day, alone and unsupervised.

Upon my return my grandmother would invariably ask "Did you go down to the creek (pronounced crick)?"

I was a kid, OF COURSE I went to the crick........where ELSE would I go?

Nowadays, seeing the 'copter parents at the nearby school, I often wonder if their parents want them to wear crash helmets while watching TV.

/OT
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Old 09-19-2016, 04:34 PM   #60
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A huge problem. My petite grade school daughter was a target. I was ready to take her to krav maga classes since the administrators did nothing. Dw stumbled across a more effective solution. She groused about the situation on Facebook and when the principal had to deal with the start of a scandal things changed fast.



Personally I would have preferred she deliver a solid beating to the culprits, but in the schools today that comes with a heavy price.


That reminds me back in the day as a principal my best 2 situations... Usually we were able to get it solved, but one situation could never get resolved as a boy kept mouthing and shoving a kid around corners or bathrooms where no one could witness or verify...And of course the bully would deny doing anything...Parents were no help.
Parent of child receiving end said she wanted him to punch him but didnt want the discipline on his permanent record. I assured mother discipline does not follow him and starts over in HS. I reemphasized there will be nothing that follows him, and a "3 day vacation" would end this permanently. 2 weeks later, the bully got bullied, and there was never a problem again.
At another school where paddling was still allowed, I personally got to "bully the bully". And lets just say the paddle ended the bullying pretty quick. A few kids each year who didnt know their school law very well, waited to bully walking home from school thinking they were outside of the schools boundaries... They thought wrong and the rear end suffered the pain for the mistake the brain made. But the rear quickly convinced the brain not to do it again. I never had to "bully the same bully" twice!
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