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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 04:54 AM   #21
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

From a quick review.... from Wiki..

"Some presidents present special problems because their foreign policy success/failure stands in contradiction to their domestic policy failure/success. Political scientist Walter Dean Burnham noted the "dichotomous or schizoid profiles. On some very important dimensions both Wilson and L.B. Johnson were outright failures in my view; while on others they rank very high indeed. Similarly with Nixon." Historian Alan Brinkley said: "There are presidents who could be considered both failures and great or near great (for example, Wilson, Johnson, Nixon). James MacGregor Burns observed of Nixon, 'How can one evaluate such an idiosyncratic president, so brilliant and so morally lacking?'" (Skidmore 2001)."

So, if it wasn't for that resignation thingy.... Nixon would be a great or near great president??

As I said, history will change the way people look at them..

They rank him 'on average' as the 29th best president.. but has been as high as 23..

Richard Nixon Republican 29.2 Vietnam War, Normalization of relations with China, détente, Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, Clean Water Act, creation of Environmental Protection Agency, wage and price controls, corruption (Watergate scandal, harrassment of opponents via FBI and IRS), resignation to avoid impeachment


As of 2005 rankings.... Bush was ahead of Clinton 19 to 22...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori....S._Presidents
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 05:01 AM   #22
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc

50 - 75 Years - My goodness - Clinton's quest to rewrite his legacy is a bigger job than he anticipated. Think about it, in 50 years his legacy is going to be 75 years old. And when people see Monica at 75 (not going to be a pretty sight) and ask "Bill did what with her?," all that legacy building will be for nothing.
That's why it may take longer now. By going around with your PR department talking it up, you just may extend the time before all the papers and results settle down.

Is SS an FDR problem or is it the problem of the presidents that followed that didn't control the finances? In the midst of one Great Depression, FDR may have sowed the seeds for the next one.

Clinton could have put out the word and had a line of starlets lining the White House for their turn. What kind of dufus does what was "alleged" with a staffer? Then he lies about it in sworn testomony. He could have said he did it and it was fully consensual and it would have ended. The purjury created the stir.
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 05:26 AM   #23
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by 2B

Clinton could have put out the word and had a line of starlets
Always worked for me.

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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 05:57 AM   #24
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by 2B

Is SS an FDR problem or is it the problem of the presidents that followed that didn't control the finances?
Neither.

This is so typical of today's confident but uninformed right-wing spin. SS is not a problem at all -- it is the most successful govt program in US history. Medicare is a problem, because health care financing in the broader sense is the problem.
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 06:53 AM   #25
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by jeff2006
Neither.

This is so typical of today's confident but uninformed right-wing spin. SS is not a problem at all -- it is the most successful govt program in US history. Medicare is a problem, because health care financing in the broader sense is the problem.
That's why it's going bankrupt and will not be there by the time I am eligible. If the government would have kept it status quo and raised the minimum eligibility age as the life expectancy raised it would be in good shape, but that would be seen as anti-old people and the Senators and Congressmen would be quickly voted out. Who was it that said, the Republic will be short lived once the people realize they can vote themselves benefits (or something like that)?
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 07:01 AM   #26
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
That's why it's going bankrupt and will not be there by the time I am eligible. If the government would have kept it status quo and raised the minimum eligibility age as the life expectancy raised it would be in good shape, but that would be seen as anti-old people and the Senators and Congressmen would be quickly voted out. Who was it that said, the Republic will be short lived once the people realize they can vote themselves benefits (or something like that)?
I prefer "The Republic is never in more danger than when the legislature
is in session."

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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 07:12 AM   #27
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
That's why it's going bankrupt and will not be there by the time I am eligible.
Bunk!
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 08:13 AM   #28
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by jeff2006
Bunk!
Well there's no debating that logic. :
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 08:33 AM   #29
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2B
... Then he lies about it in sworn testomony. He could have said he did it and it was fully consensual and it would have ended. The purjury created the stir.
This is the similarity with Nixon. If Nixon had come clean on Watergate right away the outcome would have been different. The coverup and the behaviour demonstrated in all the tapes were his undoing.

Clinton made a severe error in judgement regarding Monica. Aside for a poor choice to do it with (hey he picked Hillary ), he must have believed she would continue to keep their secret. But she caved when threatened with purjury. Purjury is what got Martha in the end.
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 08:37 AM   #30
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
Well there's no debating that logic. :
Agreed! So there . . .
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 10:41 AM   #31
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
So, who is this "everyone I know" group of folks?
I could name several of them, but it would not affect the argument. Do you really not understand the difference between these two cases?

Allow me to explain. . . In an earlier post, you made a broad generalization implying that all people wanted the rich to be defined only as people more wealthy than themselves. Your justification for this is that you had talked to people. The size and make-up of that sample you talked to is critical to the conclusion. Your reasoning goes something like this:

I talked to 2 friends and 3 relatives who were X.
Therefore all people are X.

This, of course, is not logical. The conclusion does not follow from the first fact.

In contrast, the current thread made a statement implying that everyone now recognized Nixon to be a great President. I've never talked to anyone who believed that Nixon was a great President, and have talked so some who think he is not a great President. The reasoning goes something like this:

hypothesis: All people are X.
I know 2 friends and 3 relatives who are not X.
therefore the hypothesis is false.

The sample size (for any sample greater than zero) and make-up is irrelevant to the conclusion.

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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 10:45 AM   #32
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

I think it would be easier to understand where you're coming from if you would confine your statements to the truth and not wander off into other territory.
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 10:49 AM   #33
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff2006
The perceptions of Nixon and Bush may be relative. I thought that Nixon was an incompetent crook, until Bush came along and set a completely new standard. Now even Nixon doesn't look too bad. But you're right -- it's really all Clinton's fault!

The people who still defend Bush are Republicans in name only, and certainly are not conservatives in any meaningful sense.
Spoken as a true Democrat..............
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 10:57 AM   #34
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Spoken as a true Democrat..............
Whoops, financedude, not so -- I voted Republican more often than not in the past. Would be glad to vote Republican again if they had a candidate who cared about anything beyond advancing corporate power at home and killing people overseas.
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 11:10 AM   #35
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

I cannot fathom how anyone could consider the current occupant of the Oval Offce (not Dirty Dick) to be a success. Can one of the true believers articulate why they think this is a great pResidency?
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 11:38 AM   #36
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
I cannot fathom how anyone could consider the current occupant of the Oval Offce (not Dirty Dick) to be a success. Can one of the true believers articulate why they think this is a great pResidency?
Never said he was..............but to label "anyone who is a Republican is NOT a conservative" is bunk............

Here's a better question: Who are the Dems putting their hopes on, Obama, or Kerry?
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 11:39 AM   #37
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by FinanceDude
Never said he was..............but to label "anyone who is a Republican is NOT a conservative" is bunk............

Here's a better question: Who are the Dems putting their hopes on, Obama, or Kerry?
Changing the subject. eh? Any other True Believers want to take a crack at it?
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 11:43 AM   #38
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Changing the subject. eh? Any other True Believers want to take a crack at it?
Nah, just seeing if you were paying attention.............

It is well documented how much you hate Bush and his staff...........

Well, the economy seems to be doing well, the tax cuts have allowed the govt to collect the 3rd highest capital gains taxes in history, and the deficit is smaller than expected. Isn't that a good start?

Oh, that's right, all you care about is Iraq.............
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 11:53 AM   #39
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

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Well, the economy seems to be doing well, the tax cuts have allowed the govt to collect the 3rd highest capital gains taxes in history, and the deficit is smaller than expected. Isn't that a good start?

Oh, that's right, all you care about is Iraq.............
How about things Bush should have control of? It is debatable whether any president has muc to do with the general economy. Clinton got the benefit of an economic upswell he had little to do with and Daddy Bush got the short end of the economic stick through (largely) no fault of his own.

Tax cuts? Deficit? Please. We are still drowning in gouts of gummint debt being issued. Neither Bush nor his co-religionists fellow party members supposedly controlling the purse strings over in Congress ever seem to have heard of the words "fiscal restraint." In the meantime, income and wealth disparities in the US continue to grow at a surprising pace. Remind me why we tax income derived from labor at much hgher levels than income derived from capital?

And, yes, I don't think you can ignore Iraq, Afghanistan, the botched/dropped hunt for Osama, the trashing of our military, the complete loss of political capital with the rest of the world, the shredding of the Constitution, etc. But I am still waiting for a cogent argument as to why Monkey-boy has been a good president. Something more is required than a vague comment about how the economy seems to be doing OK...
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy
Old 10-31-2006, 12:01 PM   #40
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Re: Bush's Real Legacy

I'm a conservative, and I will not tell you GWB has been a good president, I don't think he has. Has he been (as some Dems have labeled him) the worst president ever? Well, I don't think so either......

The farther we get away from 9/11, the more the country forgets. You really think Gore and Lieberman would have done a good job post-9/11? :P :P :P

I would like to hear how the military is "trashed", when Clinton was the one who did the largest slashing of military budgets in the nation's history..........
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