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Old 12-17-2008, 07:14 PM   #181
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Sam, the 3% hold back is designed to defray costs to the dealer such as the cost of keeping the car on the ground at the dealer which costs hundreds each month. Also for fixed expenses such as utilities and other incidentals. Do you now think that the dealer should give that up also just to sell a car?
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:18 PM   #182
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I am at a loss on this thread. As much as you guys know about most everything, the stuff I have read on this thread the past 3 pages or so is about as false. It's like you guys read a book from some failed car salesman telling how to "stick it to the man", or believe what Money magazine tells you on how to buy a car.

Cardude, 73454ss and I have all actually worked at dealerships. The stuff you guys believe is cost and all that is heresay and rumors and god knows what else. But I can't let all this misinformation stated as fact go without a fight. Car dealerships are a FOR-PROFIT enterprise, NOT ALL the money is made in service parts, and body shop, the monthly expenses would make all of you drop your jaws to the ground, etc. Sales typically have 50-60% turnover a year, and you wonder why you can't get good sales help. Guess what, it's not just cars, its everywhere. I went to Loews today, and there were 20 employees standing around watching me trying to find a stupid part for 20 minutes and not ONE offered to help. Well, screw them, I'll buy the $7,000 worth of materials for my basement remodeling project at the local guy who actually cares that I stop on, and won't mind paying a little more to do so........
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:22 PM   #183
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. Well, screw them, I'll buy the $7,000 worth of materials for my basement remodeling project at the local guy who actually cares that I stop on, and won't mind paying a little more to do so........
OK. You gonna spring for the undercoating and pinstriping, too?
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:25 PM   #184
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OK. You gonna buy the undercoating and pinstriping, too?
So, materials for a 650 square foot remodeling project shouldn't cost $7000? Man, I am getting ripped off. Maybe Habitiat for Humanity will help.............
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:30 PM   #185
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OK. You gonna spring for the undercoating and pinstriping, too?
Yeah, if you would have bought some stuff maybe they would have found your keys faster.
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:40 PM   #186
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Would you also like to see their profit and loss statements. ...

I think you should ask to speak to their accountant before you buy a car so you can make sure their making exactly what you want them to.
In a free market, the consumer does not need to know, and does not really care what the cost structure is behind the purchase. That is part of the beauty of a free market.

The price offered will reflect competition, and the average costs of those selling the product. If a company can't make a decent profit selling at $X, then they go out of business. If an entire industry can't make a decent profit selling at $X, then that industry needs to change. Maybe the market can only support fewer sellers, and those sellers can charge $Xplus, with lower competition. But something has to give.

If two places have a flat screen TV for sale, one @ $899, the other @ $999. I'm going to buy from the one at $899 (all else being equal). It does me no good to hear the $999 guy tell me he has a bigger rent payment or whatever. A free market does not care. You do what you need to do to survive - both the buyer and the seller.

Maybe I'll go with the $999 guy if I know he provides better service or whatever, but I'm not going to ask him about his cost structure - that is his business.

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Old 12-17-2008, 07:44 PM   #187
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Sam, the 3% hold back is designed to defray costs to the dealer such as the cost of keeping the car on the ground at the dealer which costs hundreds each month. Also for fixed expenses such as utilities and other incidentals. Do you now think that the dealer should give that up also just to sell a car?
The customer shouldn't care about any of this stuff. He shouldn't care about the dealer's light bill, financing costs, or gout. That's the dealer's problem. Frankly, the customer shouldn't care what the dealer paid for the car--it's irrelevant. If the dealer paid $30K and it is an in-demand model he believes he can sell for $40K within a week, then that's what he will try to get, and he won't take $32K for it. If his total net cost for a car are $30K but he needs space on his lot and the car has just been sitting there for six months generating no customer interest, then he'll sell it for $28k and be happy to do it.

The silliness with the invoice only comes up because buyers are told that that's the price they should start negotiating up from. But the invoice is not the dealer's net cost for the car due to all the holdbacks, etc.

I don't care what Home Depot, Lowes, and Sears pay for the refrigerators they sell me. I don't care about the overhead at these stores, or that their salesmen are having a tough day. I shop them all, and then pick the product that gives me the best value. If they ever left me sitting in that little room for 30 minutes playing with the sharp pencils while they went to "consult with their manager" to see if they could sell me a fridge at a particular price, I would not go back.
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:45 PM   #188
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ERD50,Really, then why is everyone on the thread talking about Edmonds, dealer invoices and dealer cost and hidden money.

Bottom line in most cases it's only about one thing and you said it. PRICE Not how fast you can get out of the dealer or any of the other nonsense.
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:49 PM   #189
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Sam, you're the one who brought up about the hold back and ture invoices so it must play some part for you.

Remember that every customer that walks into a showroom seems to know exactly the right way to do business. The only ones that don't know are the dealers. Wake up!
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:09 PM   #190
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After I attempted to leave the dealership only to learn my keys had been "lost" by the used car guy who took it for an inspection, I told the sales guy he had 60 seconds to find them. When he was unmotivated to help me out, I walked to the middle of the showroom, stood in a chair and shouted,

"MY CAR KEYS HAVE BEEN STOLEN! THE POLICE ARE ON THE WAY! NO ONE IS TO LEAVE THE DEALERSHIP UNTIL YOU HAVE UNDERGONE A BODY SEARCH!"

Found my keys. Never set foot in that dealership again. Told this story to everyone who mentioned shopping for a new car.
Wow rewahoo, you're a little bit crazy! I like it...
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:10 PM   #191
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ERD50,Really, then why is everyone on the thread talking about Edmonds, dealer invoices and dealer cost and hidden money.
You'd have to ask THEM, I never said those things. So it's not 'everyone'.

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Bottom line in most cases it's only about one thing and you said it. PRICE Not how fast you can get out of the dealer or any of the other nonsense.
Depends. It is a big issue for me. I hate doing business with people who are hard to do business with. Especially when they are in the process of selling me something. If they are that much of a pain when I'm handing over money, how bad will it be when I need something from them at a time that I'm not handing them money? I hate to think about it.

One (of many) things that keeps me from getting cable is the stupid ads and coupons and everything I get bombarded with from them that only give me an 'introductory' price. It can take 20 minutes to find out what it will really cost.

I hesitate to do business with people who are hiding something, or make the process difficult.

-ERD50
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:13 PM   #192
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In a free market, the consumer does not need to know, and does not really care what the cost structure is behind the purchase. That is part of the beauty of a free market.
Then WHY do MOST PEOPLE think they KNOW how car sales work?

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If two places have a flat screen TV for sale, one @ $899, the other @ $999. I'm going to buy from the one at $899 (all else being equal). It does me no good to hear the $999 guy tell me he has a bigger rent payment or whatever. A free market does not care. You do what you need to do to survive - both the buyer and the seller.

Maybe I'll go with the $999 guy if I know he provides better service or whatever, but I'm not going to ask him about his cost structure - that is his business.
Well, most folks are price shoppers. However did you know that Lexus buyers rarely negotiate their purchases, even though their markup is 22% versus GM's average of 8%, why is that??
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:13 PM   #193
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Remember that every customer that walks into a showroom seems to know exactly the right way to do business. The only ones that don't know are the dealers. Wake up!
You gotta stop using that word, 'every'.

Some salespeople know how to sell annuities to little old ladies. But it won't work with this crowd. Maybe on average, it works, I don't know. But I suspect that a different sales technique would be more successful with this crowd.

But, we are not 'everybody'.

-ERD50
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:23 PM   #194
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ERD, not to be rude and this may not make you happy but most of the people in this crowd are not the people that salespeople want to deal with.

And yes Every person who comes in is different than the one before them. Everyone has a diff. opinion of how we should sell, what the car should sell for and what color is best.
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:26 PM   #195
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. . . most of the people in this crowd are not the people that salespeople want to deal with.
.
Oh, I can believe that.
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:28 PM   #196
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But I suspect that a different sales technique would be more successful with this crowd.
7% yields on 5 year CDs would work for sure..........

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But, we are not 'everybody'.
73 was making a general point that "everyone" that walks into a dealership "thinks" they know everything about the process but that is far from the truth. I think most folks on here buy cars from craigslist or through classified ads........
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:28 PM   #197
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Well, that's good Sam, at least you believe something I've said.
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:30 PM   #198
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I am at a loss on this thread. As much as you guys know about most everything, the stuff I have read on this thread the past 3 pages or so is about as false. It's like you guys read a book from some failed car salesman telling how to "stick it to the man", or believe what Money magazine tells you on how to buy a car.
No worse than what's being spread about Priuses...

When a retail establishment starts telling me "what I need to understand", that's when I realize that I need to take my ignorance to another business. You know, one that appreciates my business without having to tell me how hard it is.
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:34 PM   #199
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ERD, not to be rude and this may not make you happy but most of the people in this crowd are not the people that salespeople want to deal with.
That's fine, no offense taken. I'm sure many salespeople are not happy to see me. I don't want to buy the $30 extended warranty on the $40 DVD player, etc, etc, etc. I'm not there to make friends with the salesperson, I just want to complete a transaction.

OTOH, I'm also not the type to waste the salesperson's time with a bunch of questions that I already researched on the internet. A good salesperson will try to recognize who he is dealing with, and adapt. If they aren't good enough to do that, then people should not be surprised that some customers are dissatisfied with the experience. Maybe those are the best salespeople they can attract - so be it. But I can still complain about it, 'cause that's the way it is (for many of us).

-ERD50

PS - DW and I just re-watched Fargo on DVD a few weeks back. Gotta give samclem a +1 for the Fargo car sales guy pic. LOL!
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:44 PM   #200
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RE: free market -
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Then WHY do MOST PEOPLE think they KNOW how car sales work?
I'll guess that it is because the car sales industry has reinforced that as their business model. The "$200 over invoice" lines and all that. Rather than, "this car is a great value at $22,000".


Quote:
Well, most folks are price shoppers. However did you know that Lexus buyers rarely negotiate their purchases, even though their markup is 22% versus GM's average of 8%, why is that??
Again, maybe because they don't care what the costs to produce the thing are - they care about what they are getting for their dollar.

If two models are hypothetically equal in all ways, what difference does it make to me if it is priced @ $45,000 with a 'markup' of 8%, or it is priced at $45,000 with a 'markup' of 22%? All I care about is what I'm getting for my $45,000. The 'markup' is the businesses concern.

I'll soften that a bit by saying that if the 8% markup isn't enough to keep that company in business and supporting their warranties and such, I would care. But then, all things are not hypothetically equal.

-ERD50
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