Canine problems

[Sarah in SC]

Hey Westernskies--can you clarify: if my leashed dog that doesn't like other dogs smelling her butt is approached by an off leash dog, you are seriously suggesting it is MY fault and MY problem if she goes after that dog?

Really? I'm not exactly sure I follow the logic.

Not that I take my dogs anywhere, but I gotta say, that just jumps right out at me.

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

If you know your dog is a coward and will become unpredictably aggressive if another dog smells his butt, you probably shouldn't take the fearful do to the park with other dogs.

In a dog park it is expected that dogs will be off-leash and dogs greet one another in their inimatable way - disgusting but not aggressive, except to the poor pooch discussed above. And in a non-dog park, you just know some idiot will have his dog off leach, so why knowingly put your fearful dog at risk? I agree that the butt-sniffer should never have been off leash except in a dog park. But knowing it happens regularly, I wouldn't put my scared dog in harm's way.

Our late Doberman (whom Sarah had the pleasure of meeting) was interesting to watch in the park. She was cautious with other dogs, and I could tell she was nervous but she never made an aggressive move. But often the new dog would just seem to break the standoff and run away. It wasn't until a very quiet summer day away from all traffic and noise that I realized what was going on: she would generate a soft, almost subsonic growl that made the hair on the back ok my neck stand on end. Apparently entirely effective.

[Bestwifeever]

Western, I think Caoineag's dog is afraid of other dogs BECAUSE it got mauled, likely when it was a puppy before it had any fear.

A public park is not exactly the wilds--by definition it is a controlled environment, and dogs within it should be controlled. It is not a dog-eat-dog world in a public park. A leash is not very hard to put on a dog.

We had adorable small dogs that were afraid of and did not like small children and we kept them out of environments with children, because our dogs were kid-magnets. I can be an animal behaviorist only when it comes to my own dogs.

[Westernskies]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarah in SC Hey Westernskies--can you clarify: if my leashed dog that doesn't like other dogs smelling her butt is approached by an off leash dog, you are seriously suggesting it is MY fault and MY problem if she goes after that dog? Really? I'm not exactly sure I follow the logic. Not that I take my dogs anywhere, but I gotta say, that just jumps right out at me.

Not suggesting it is would be YOUR fault - (we do have leash laws) but if you knew that your dog had a serious problem (as evidenced by previous encounters) with other dogs smelling her butt why would you put her a situation where you knew there was going to be a very strong possibility that this was going to happen? You can expect everyone else to control their animals at all times (it's the law!) , but you know (as evidenced by previous encounters) that it doesn't always happen. A 85-lb woman can always control a 185-lb animal, dogs never slip their collars, chew through their leashes, smell food, escape from their carriers, run from fireworks, chase squirrels, jump out of the back of a moving truck bed, etc... - but it would be YOUR problem.

Here is a hypothetical question for you- Would you take your dog to the dog park when she was in heat? After all, you would be well within your rights to do so. The other dogs would be expected to stay away, because that's what the rules say, right? You could keep her right next to you on a leash, and not expect any of the other dogs in the park to come anywhere near, right? After all, they are all either going to be restrained on leashes by responsible owners, or so well trained that they can ignore the most basic of animal urges, right?- because that is what the law says.

My point is that people need to make objective (not emotional) judgments about whether their pets are well-suited to a public park environment they cannot control- keeping in mind that while you may choose to or be able to control your pet, others may not be able or interested in doing so with theirs. If your pet is not well-suited for this, why put them into a situation that has the demonstrated potential to turn out badly- for the pet owner, for their pets or for others?

[Caoineag]

I take my dogs for walks because its good for them mentally and physically. My fraidy pooch gets to see other dogs around that aren't trying to eat it which actually helps him in his daily life (less freaking out at outside noise, less nervous all round, less reaction to other dogs period) and he loves people and gets to meet people on walks.

As to dogs trying to attack him, I haven't had any problems. I know there is at least one person in my neighborhood training an aggressive dog because she crosses the street to avoid dogs with her dog and uses treats when the dog ignores other dogs. I have absolutely no problem with her being out with an aggressive dog because she is doing what is necessary to control him.

My husband is a different story. I still remember the time I had to take command of a dog that wanted to eat my husband while we were running. I made him go on and faced down the dog to keep it from attacking him. Should I always keep my husband at home for fear of his being mauled? He has been bitten by an off leash dog in a regular park before.

Again, I repeat parks and sidewalks are not dog parks.

[tuixiu]

People have been bitten at public parks too, perhaps they should stop going to parks as well. In fact I'm putting my dog in a diaper so she doesn't have the risk of walking leashed on public sidewalks or parks, that'll solve it.

[Caoineag]

FYI (since their seems to be some confusion), my fraidy pooch is a rescue dog, he was mauled twice by one of the other dogs owned by his previous owner. Again, a human problem of not training.

[freebird5825]

When I first got my little rocket dog, she was 14 weeks old plus or minus. She was a Humane Society special.
I had her alone with me in my back yard, teaching her to walk on a leash and the basics. A neighbor's dog, a large black something mix, decided to come check us out. He was usually kept on a chain outside but they liked to let him run periodically.
This big dog (easily 100 lbs) was eyeing us both up from a short distance in a way I did not like. He was standing stock still and just staring. No positive body language at all. Just silent.
My little rocket dog barked her head off and the hair on her back went right up. I picked her up and walked into my fenced garden before she got us both attacked. She was gonna kick that dog's butt, in her mind only, because she was still a pupster.
I told the owner what happened, her dog's behavior, and asked her to please not let the dog run free. She got a bit huffy but agreed. I knew the dog would be allowed to run free again.
This was the excuse I needed to have a full yard perimeter fence installed before the end of the year.

[Westernskies]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiuxiu People have been bitten at public parks too, perhaps they should stop going to parks as well.

I'd keep my kids away from a park if I knew there was a vampire there...

[tuixiu]

I remember there was a public park in Tempe that where I used to love playing basketball. It had real nets, a water fountain, and there was always a good game going in the evening at a reasonable competitive level, and eventually I made lots of quasi-friends that I looked forward to seeing.

Only problem was there were occasional fights. They usually amounted to just pushing, sometimes some fists and rasslin around, only once that I remember a guy pulled a knife and everyone ran for their cars/bikes.

Saying I shouldn't walk my dog in public parks on a leash if it doesn't like other dogs seems like saying I shouldn't have played ball at that park. I loved shooting hoops there and had much more fun than anywhere else, and I'm quite sure my dog loves the open spaces, things to smell, shade trees, water fountain, etc. in a public park. Same as with public walking trails.

[WM]

We used to have a dog that was usually not friendly to other dogs, and it was pretty much impossible to walk her every day and not run into oblivious people whose dogs were either off leash or allowed to get close to us even though I would take my dog to the side of the path/sidewalk and have her sit (she was always on a leash). Always, of course, with the other owner saying "my dog's friendly!" It was really stressful.

We talked to our dog trainer about it and her solution was to not walk the dog in places where this would happen. Pretty much useless advice, unless I wanted to walk only along major thoroughfares and avoid residential streets and the nearby hiking trails.

I think the only solution to off-leash dogs is to call and report people if you can't reason with the owner, but I don't have much faith that it will really solve the problem. I think people just have different standards for what constitutes "ok" behavior.

[Sue J]

There's a lady in our neighborhood who uses an electric scooter to get around and that's also how she takes her dog for a walk. It's a small dog, so often the dog rides on the scooter between the lady's feet. On the front of the scooter she has a sign mounted that says, "Bitsy is not friendly".

Yes, Bitsy is the dog! She's always on a leash.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caoineag I still remember the time I had to take command of a dog that wanted to eat my husband while we were running. I made him go on and faced down the dog to keep it from attacking him. Should I always keep my husband at home for fear of his being mauled?

Of course hubby should not be kept at home because an out of control, aggressive dog tried to eat him. But the agressive pup should be captured and terminated.

[Michael Moore]

We've recently had problems with off-leash dogs and we don't even have a dog (though my wife did have one when we met, but that dog died a couple decades ago).

There are designated off-leash areas in Golden Gate Park and we know where they are and stay away from them. We've got no problem sharing the park that way, or with dogs that are controlled on-leash in the other areas of the park. But there are too many "special" people with their "special" animals who are sure that the laws don't apply to them.

We were near the Polo Fields (we're 2 blocks from GG Park and Ocean Beach in SF so we can easily spend an hour or two a day walking in GGP) a couple weeks ago when a jogger with two medium sized dogs passed us on a path that is about 8' wide. Her dogs weren't on leash (and this is an on-leash area) and as soon as they passed and got behind us they charged at us and had us pretty concerned that we were going to get bitten.

Yes, I'll agree that the primary culprit here is the irresponsible dog owner, but it is getting to the point where at least 30% of the dogs we see in the on-leash areas of the park are not under control. When my wife's dog was still alive we had experiences of other dogs attacking it while their owners called out "he's just playing." Excuse me, there's a pretty obvious difference between attacking and playing.


I called the SFPD Dangerous Animal Unit and talked to an officer and his first question was "do you carry a stick with you?" I told him I had a 5' hickory staff on order. He said that pepper spray was good to have BUT since dogs don't have tear glands it doesn't affect about 1/3 of them, and if the dog is really intent on biting you they can shake it off enough to still get to you.

He recommends to the officers to not try and kick a dog as you'll be off balance and if they get your leg they can pull you down to their level and then you are in bigger trouble. He said to get something into their mouth - stick, flashlight, ticket book, something other than YOU, and then try to deal with it. He also mentioned that when officers discharged their hand gun the loud noise seemed to dissuade some dogs, so we're going to get one of those 120dB aerosol horns from the sporting good store.

The officer also urged me to report any problem animals to the police and to make sure they follow through with action which will eventually bring the animal/owner to his unit's attention. He stated that no one should have to feel threatened by other people's animals in the park.

Hopefully, we'll never need to use the staff or spray or horn, but we sure aren't happy about having to load up with weapons to go for a walk in the park. Most dogs ARE probably OK and I'd prefer to not have to injure a dog but when any off-leash dog is approaching me I don't care if the owner insists that it is friendly, it is going to be perceived as a potential threat until it is brought under control. If they don't want it pepper sprayed/clubbed until it moves away from us they can damn well keep it on leash and out of our immediate space as the law requires. Every dog is a potentially lethal weapon and I wish more dog owners would realize that.

BTW, if you google "dog attack" you can find some really scary posts at different running/hiking fora. One lady was out running and only managed to escape from a small pack of loose dogs because someone was driving by and they stopped and let her get in the car with them.

I'll save the rant about people who live in the city and who buy dogs (especially big dogs) and then moan "I've got to let my dog run free in the park, he's cooped up all day in the apartment" for another time.

Be safe and keep your animals controlled so they and other people/creatures can be safe too.

cheers,
Michael

[MichaelB]

We called the police and asked to meet with the animal control officer. She is on vacation ‘til monday – I left a voicemail and we’ll talk next week. They sent over the community officer – he took a preliminary report and we had a relaxed 20 minute conversation. Excellent interviewing technique and provided very clear answers.

The nearby park is for the general public, has a playground for small children and there is a local leash ordinance (all times when out of the house except where specifically allowed). We have frequently adjusted our walking schedule to avoid dogs off leash – and while that’s ok, we should not make any more compromises but instead insist that dogs in the park be leashed – especially those that are untrained and with clueless owners.

Regarding defense, he first suggested pepper spray (very much off the record), laughed when I repeated Rich’s thought about spraying myself but acknowledged the possibility. He was very much against the stun baton. He said it is an offensive weapon that needs user training and enables the possibility of conflict with the human associated with the dog in a way that could end badly - or at least in an unexpected way. He has a point.

We both agreed on an alternative DW and I used when we lived in caracas – a walking stick. There it common to find abandoned dogs in the street, especially around new construction, and a stick is helpful against one or two dogs with little likelihood of inadvertent self-harm.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Moore Be safe and keep your animals controlled so they and other people/creatures can be safe too.

And pick up your pup's crap and bring it home with you. Piles of poop littering walking/running trails, playgrounds, etc., are disgusting and a real infringement on other peoples' right to utilize/enjoy public venues.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB Regarding defense, he first suggested pepper spray (very much off the record), laughed when I repeated Rich’s thought about spraying myself but acknowledged the possibility. He was very much against the stun baton. He said it is an offensive weapon that needs user training and enables the possibility of conflict with the human associated with the dog in a way that could end badly - or at least in an unexpected way. He has a point. .

My own feeling is that the issue of getting pepper spray on yourself is greatly overstated. I carry bear spray on wilderness camping trips and have discharged two canisters (near expiration date) as practice. They spray a narrow, confined cone out 20' or more where you aim it. I'd consider the threat of personal exposure to some of the spray minor as compared to the threat of a 100# German Shepherd going for my throat.

My real fear with pepper spray is some of the whacky dog owners. Because you'd likely discharge the spray before the dog has actually clamped down on you, I'm sure the owner would be outraged and say that "puppy" always barks, growls, shows teeth and charges at fellow hiking path occupants and I overreacted. At least with some sort of walking stick or "zapper" it would be obvious that the dog has attacked, you are now in hand-to-fangs combat and probably entitled to offer some sort of resistance.

BTW, I love dogs and frequently dog-sit for my son's smooth collie. And yes, Bernouli is always leashed when we walk and I bring his poop deposits home with me.

[travelover]

I've gone the Halt spray route and it is very effective on the dogs, but it gets the owners all riled up. I even had one owner chase me and release his dog from a leash after it had attacked me and my dog in front of his house earlier.

I later went to an oak staff (replacement shovel handle). The dogs recognize this as a threat and will peel off. If they do attack, it is a fromidable weapon.

Yes it is sad that dog owners are so selfish, but it is a symptom of a greater societal selfishness, IMO.

[Michael Moore]

Michael, look up your state's rules on pepper spray. I'm surprised that the officer told you to use it "off the record." This isn't from a state site but I've seen it (or something very like it) several places:

Quote:

Using Pepper Spray in California What is the pepper spray law in California? Misuse of tear gas in California comes with state penalties of up to a $1000 fine and/or up to three years in prison, not to mention a possible felony conviction on record. Examples of misuse include using tear gas on people in anger, spraying it as a joke, or possession of tear gas by prohibited persons. Minors, drug addicts or persons convicted of felonies, assault or misuse of tear gas are legally prohibited from possessing tear gas, although there are few barriers to procurement of tear gas by these people. To be legally purchased, possessed or used in California, any canister must have a label that says "WARNING: The use of this substance or device for any purpose other than self-defense is a crime under the law. The contents are dangerous--use with care." The maximum legal net weight for a canister is 2.5 ounces, or 70 grams of OC.

The stuff I got is by Sabre and contains red pepper, CS tear gas and an invisible UV dye. I thought the latter might be useful in identifying the animal. It has a belt clip and was $10 at the local sporting goods store. There is a safety latch that has to be pushed to a central position and then it is used as the lever to operate the aerosol. I think if you managed to pick it up backwards and activate it you'd probably end up spraying the inside of your hand.

We've got concerns about idiot owners following up on their dog's attack. The kind of people who won't leash their dogs seem like the kind of people that instead of saying "I'm sorry my dog killed you" they'd be more likely to complain that your bones were too hard and blunted their dog's teeth and want you to pay for the vet bills to sharpen them back up.

But you've got the right to self-defense in an appropriate fashion.

One of the dog-attack sites I read told of a guy who was out hiking and had 3 big off leash dogs come at him in what sounded like a very clear pack attack mode. He carried a handgun and he shot all the dogs. The dogs owner then came at him and he shot and killed the owner too. He went to prison for that because shooting the owner wasn't an appropriate level of force. He should have first tried to get away, or maybe a warning shot and tell him to stay back. It also came out in the trial that the hiker had some martial arts training though that was 10 years in the past, so he was thought to have had another, lower force, option that he could have used before killing the person.

I figure that if the dog owner starts after you (and why isn't he taking care of his dog first?) you need to be shouting at him to stay away and backing away from him to make it clear that he is the aggressor and that you gave him clear warning that you were going to act to defend yourself with the pepper spray.

You are probably better off using the pepper spray on the other person than your stick. Police have guidelines on use of their batons and body areas that are clear "no strike" zones because of the danger of severe or lethal damage.

As in Monty Python's "King Arthur and the Holy Grail " "run away, run away" is always a good plan. But only after the dog has been controlled. Running from a dog just sets them into "catch the prey" mode and they can outrun you.

A few minutes with Google and some different combinations of search terms will get you far more scary stuff about dog attacks than you'll ever enjoy reading.

cheers,
Michael

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Moore The stuff I got is by Sabre and contains red pepper, CS tear gas and an invisible UV dye. I thought the latter might be useful in identifying the animal. It has a belt clip and was $10 at the local sporting goods store.

I carry this stuff when camping "UP Nort." Sadly, some thoughtless campers keep messy campsites and follow poor practices regarding bear management and now some parks, such as the BWCAW, have a number of nuisance bears who won't take "no" for an answer when they come around looking to scavage food. The chances of ever needing it are tiny, but like not standing under a tree when there is lightning, it's just a rule I follow. It costs about five times as much as the personal defense spray you have, the canister is much bigger and won't fit in a pocket (it's on a holster on my belt) but it delivers a lot of spray quickly. The manufacturer warns that all normal precautions ref bears be followed and recommends the product only as a last resort during a bear encounter. I'm guessing it would also be effective on attacking dogs, but have no specific evidence to back that up.

https://store.udap.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT




Edit: I hope the responsible dog owners, which folks on this board are likely to be, are not taking offense at this discussion. But just as a small percentage of gun owners are looney tunes, a few dog owners are either irresponsible or actually get an ego-kick out of owning a dog prone to violent behavior. I noticed Michael Vick is out of prison and playing football again.........