Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-26-2012, 03:39 PM   #41
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
Yes, but there's probably a happy medium position. She would be safest in a Hummer or Lincoln Navigator. She could hire a professional driver to transport her in a specially reinforced Mercedes. She could wear a crash helmet when driving down the block, and, as ERD50 has said, have the brakes inspected weekly.

You just have to decide where to draw the line between economy, bother, and safety.
There are 5*crash test ratings in small cars, like the one I drive, an Integra. (My '06 actually has only 4* on some dimensions, because of no side curtain airbags.) These are a very long way from the examples you gave. I am considering buying a new one to replace my 2006, mainly to get side curtain airbags. And I only drive ~4000 miles/year. Nice to protect your one and only head in a t-bone accident. I know I was hugely de-stressed by my sons decisions to forgo cars until they could afford payments on a safe new car. It also frees the mind for work and recreation too, which young people really need plenty of.

My first car was a new Volvo, and I am so happy that is what I did. Later after I was retired a bought a used VW which was a pain, but I learned a lot and I had plenty time, and by then I had become a medium capable wrencher. I always had a main family car that was bought new, and kept very well maintained. Like you say, her old car had a bent frame, and who knew? You are not going to get new Japanese car or a Ford with a bent frame. In fact, they are going to be good all around.

Tell her Uncle Ha says to go new!

Ha
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-26-2012, 03:39 PM   #42
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,399
DD owns a Saab 9-3 which I have driven a few times and seems to be a very solid car that I am quite comfortable in her tooling around town in.
__________________

__________________
pb4uski is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2012, 03:41 PM   #43
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
Yes, but there's probably a happy medium position. She would be safest in a Hummer or Lincoln Navigator. She could hire a professional driver to transport her in a specially reinforced Mercedes. She could wear a crash helmet when driving down the block, and, as ERD50 has said, have the brakes inspected weekly.

You just have to decide where to draw the line between economy, bother, and safety.
True, however something like a Fit is on the low end of the distribution curve. If we are looking for balance, which we must do in almost all cases, I'd have to think that 'balance' in this case, generally means a bit higher on the curb weight range.

I just read that a Fit is ~ 2400#. My Volvo S40 ~ 3100#, and I will get something larger when I replace it, I feel a bit vulnerable in it.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2012, 04:04 PM   #44
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 2,709
If you look at new cars you find up to 10 or more airbags that partly makes up for the lighter weight. In addition of course there is a question of does the driver go into the boonies where cell service could be spotty. As an example I had a 2000 chevy truck that the water pump went out 30 miles east of San Angelo, Tx. I barely got a cell signal but did eventually get AAA there. Traded it in on a Chevy Cruze, getting nearly double the mileage, seems ok for now. Now I did get it with a spare tire rather than the tire pump. Of course West Texas has a lot of middle of nowhere and several large cellular no service areas.
__________________
meierlde is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2012, 04:08 PM   #45
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,614
It's important to remember that the IIHS and NHTSA ratings for frontal crashes pertain only for crashes into similar-sized vehicles. A 5-star rated big car is a lot safer than a 5-sar rated small car. If we look around when we drive we'll notice anybody driving a Fit or a Smart car is unlikely to hit a similar-size vehicle.

Here's a link to an article about the testing the IIHS did between mid- and subcompact cars from the same manufacturer.
From the article:
Quote:
The Institute chose pairs of 2009 models from Daimler, Honda, and Toyota because these automakers have micro and mini models that earn good frontal crashworthiness ratings, based on the Institute's offset test into a deformable barrier. Researchers rated performance in the 40 mph car-to-car tests, like the front-into-barrier tests, based on measured intrusion into the occupant compartment, forces recorded on the driver dummy, and movement of the dummy during the impact.

Laws of physics prevail: The Honda Fit, Smart Fortwo, and Toyota Yaris are good performers in the Institute's frontal offset barrier test, but all three are poor performers in the frontal collisions with midsize cars. These results reflect the laws of the physical universe, specifically principles related to force and distance.

. . . The death rate in 1-3-year-old minicars in multiple-vehicle crashes during 2007 was almost twice as high as the rate in very large cars.

The death rate per million 1-3-year-old minis in single-vehicle crashes during 2007 was 35 compared with 11 per million for very large cars. Even in midsize cars, the death rate in single-vehicle crashes was 17 percent lower than in minicars. The lower death rate is because many objects that vehicles hit aren't solid, and vehicles that are big and heavy have a better chance of moving or deforming the objects they strike. This dissipates some of the energy of the impact.
. . .
Here's how the pairs of cars fared in the Institute's new crash tests:

Honda Accord versus Fit: The structure of the Accord held up well in the crash test into the Fit, and all except one measure of injury likelihood recorded on the driver dummy's head, neck, chest, and both legs were good. In contrast, a number of injury measures on the dummy in the Fit were less than good. Forces on the left lower leg and right upper leg were in the marginal range, while the measure on the right tibia was poor. These indicate a high risk of leg injury in a real-world crash of similar severity. In addition, the dummy's head struck the steering wheel through the airbag. Intrusion into the Fit's occupant compartment was extensive. Overall, this minicar's rating is poor in the front-to-front crash, despite its good crashworthiness rating based on the Institute's frontal offset test into a deformable barrier. The Accord earns good ratings for performance in both tests.

. . . Like the Smart and Fit, the Yaris earns an overall rating of poor in the car-to-car test. The Camry is acceptable.
We can't all drive around in Hummers and there are factors to consider other than safety. But for me, the cutoff is 3000 lbs.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2012, 04:21 PM   #46
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,962
There's no way around the large mass prevails over small mass, no matter how good the small car design. So as long as we have cheap plentiful gas, I guess many 'mericans are going to buy big cars. Hummers are nearly dead, maybe one day we'll have to give up all the other land barges...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2012, 07:03 PM   #47
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: back in the woods
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by jclarksnakes View Post
Good information but you probably forgot that the Corvette and the Lotus Elise both have frames. Both use hydroforming techniques building their frames so they do not look much like the old ladder frames. I believe there are several other currently available sports cars that also have frames.
Funny how you mention both of these cars. My buddy has the 2010 ZR1 Vett, 638hp. He was on the 94 Interstate, Ill. When a Lotus pulled along side, stomped on it, then let him catch up, my buddy had his dad with him, and he says " Dad, hang on were going for a ride". They both hit it, my buddy said the Lotus never caught up to him, he said, he let up, and was coasting down to 150mph. He said, the Lotus was Modified, you could here the difference in the motor. His dad is 92.
__________________
wargames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2012, 07:38 PM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,014
I vote for Option #1. I wouldn't feel comfortable about DD's safety in her current car, knowing what we now know.

Speaking of Volvo, did you know they are now introducing airbags on the exterior of the car, to prevent injury to pedestrians whom you hit?

Volvo introduces new pedestrian airbags | Technology News Blog - Yahoo! News
__________________
Meadbh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2012, 08:06 PM   #49
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by W2R View Post
I wonder if there is another question lurking in the back of your mind. Namely, "If this very vital almost-frame part could have been damaged when we bought the car used, and it was not detected, then who is to say that the same thing or worse won't be the case if we junk it and buy a $6000 used car?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
The cost of the repair would have been $2,100. But then they noticed this buckled part. She saw it and it was clearly bent (plus rusted, indicating that it was there when she bought the car three years ago). So that fix added $900 to the bill.
I was there when she bought the car, and she had it inspected, but this damage was not detected, nor showed up on the carfax report. The car had been vandalized, and the hood replaced. It had been purchased at auction by the person from whom she bought the car.
Note that if these had been two separate incidents, the buy/replace decision would be different ("Do I spend $900 to fix a $3,300 car?").
I wonder how much that damage mattered if it was only detectable by dissection and she got all those years of trouble-free driving from it.

Perhaps a fourth option would have been to ignore the discovery and continue with the other repairs, but I'm guessing that the body shop (and the car insurance company) would balk. And even $2100 seems like a dubious repair decision for a car of that age & mileage.

I think today's litigious society makes people nervous about driving damaged vehicles, but mechanically the vehicles can drive with a lot more damage than we're willing to put up with. We drove a '97 Nissan Altima for six years with a bent rear stabilizer bar (as in "bent into the profile of a guard rail", but that's another story) and put at least 40K miles on it. The car's still on the road today with 115K miles. Can't tell it's a problem from the handling or performance, and you can't tell it's a problem unless you know what shape a rear stabilizer bar is supposed to have.

If cars were maintained by submarine shipyards, repairs would only be done if the damage significantly (not just "annoyingly") interfered with operation. You'd hear questions like "It still goes into fourth gear but not overdrive, and you think that's a problem?!?" or "So this shimmy doesn't show up until 80 MPH, and you think we should fix it?!?"

"Temporary repair" is a very long time between shipyard overhauls...
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 02:51 AM   #50
Recycles dryer sheets
glippy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 197
The arms race in buying ever-heavier vehicles is out of control. I think we should think about making criminal and civil liability with car-related incidents proportional to the gross weight of the vehicle you're driving.

A simple system like, if you're in an accident that is your fault, you have to pay punitive damages, to be split among the victims, that are a multiple of the weight of your car. Say, something like $4/pound for every pound above one ton. So if you run into a Hummer (6,600lbs) with your Yaris (2,300lbs), you are forced to pay the Hummer driver (2,300 - 2,000) * $4 = $1,200. Whereas, if the hummer driver runs into the Yaris, he's forced to pay (6,600 - 2,000) * $4 = $18,400.

If we're going to say people have the right to drive whatever size vehicle they want in order to increase their safety, even at the cost of making the roads less safe for other drivers, they ought to have to compensate others for the increased risk they are creating.
__________________
glippy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 06:01 AM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by glippy View Post
The arms race in buying ever-heavier vehicles is out of control. I think we should think about making criminal and civil liability with car-related incidents proportional to the gross weight of the vehicle you're driving.
Lawyers for the Yaris driver (or the government in criminal cases) are free to bring these factors into the case right now, right? Seems more straightforward to just convince the judge/jury that the very size of the vehicle used by the "offending" driver, together with any other factors (intoxication, excessive speed, negligence, etc) increased the magnitude of the offense. Must we have yet another law (complete with a formula)?

I'd ask the same question the other way: If I'm in a "regular" size car and cause an accident that injures a person in a less safe car (small, no airbags, seat belts inop, etc), should I get a reduced judgement for his injuries? After all, his deliberate selection of a tin foil econobox could reasonably have been anticipated to increase his chances of injury. He put me at increased risk (of damages) by his poor choice! Yeah, that's it!
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 07:45 AM   #52
Recycles dryer sheets
Pajaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Biloxi
Posts: 70
I would try to sell it to a private party (with complete disclosure about the damage) before selling it to the scrap yard. Maybe someone in your area needs a parts car and values your daughter's car more than $800. If you don't get any takers, fall back on the scrap yard.
__________________
Pajaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 07:59 AM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vermont & Sarasota, FL
Posts: 16,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by glippy View Post
The arms race in buying ever-heavier vehicles is out of control. I think we should think about making criminal and civil liability with car-related incidents proportional to the gross weight of the vehicle you're driving.
One of the silliest ideas that I have heard.
__________________
pb4uski is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 08:03 AM   #54
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DFW_M5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
True, however something like a Fit is on the low end of the distribution curve. If we are looking for balance, which we must do in almost all cases, I'd have to think that 'balance' in this case, generally means a bit higher on the curb weight range.

I just read that a Fit is ~ 2400#. My Volvo S40 ~ 3100#, and I will get something larger when I replace it, I feel a bit vulnerable in it.

-ERD50
Don't under estimate the safety in a well constructed smaller car vs a larger/heavier vehicle. That said, if the construction is equally well engineered, by all means opt for the heavier car.

Several years ago, my DS was t-boned by a car going 80+ mph in a residential neighborhood and survived that crash in a 2005 Honda civic. The firemen who cut him out of that car said in their opinion he would not have survived if he was in a bigger US built car like an F150 (common in that college town). In terms of crash worthyness, I am a believer in Honda built cars.
__________________
DFW_M5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 09:26 AM   #55
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
I wonder how much that damage mattered if it was only detectable by dissection and she got all those years of trouble-free driving from it.

Perhaps a fourth option would have been to ignore the discovery and continue with the other repairs, but I'm guessing that the body shop (and the car insurance company) would balk. And even $2100 seems like a dubious repair decision for a car of that age & mileage.

I think today's litigious society makes people nervous about driving damaged vehicles, but mechanically the vehicles can drive with a lot more damage than we're willing to put up with. We drove a '97 Nissan Altima for six years with a bent rear stabilizer bar (as in "bent into the profile of a guard rail", but that's another story) and put at least 40K miles on it. The car's still on the road today with 115K miles. Can't tell it's a problem from the handling or performance, and you can't tell it's a problem unless you know what shape a rear stabilizer bar is supposed to have.

If cars were maintained by submarine shipyards, repairs would only be done if the damage significantly (not just "annoyingly") interfered with operation. You'd hear questions like "It still goes into fourth gear but not overdrive, and you think that's a problem?!?" or "So this shimmy doesn't show up until 80 MPH, and you think we should fix it?!?"

"Temporary repair" is a very long time between shipyard overhauls...

I agree... cars can still work just fine and be safe with a lot of damage...

I had one car that was made in the 60s... it had a 3 speed auto... and second gear went out... you had to accelerate to a speed when you knew 3rd would work and then let up on the gas so it would shift...

I also bent the A frame on that car... put on another that did not quite fit properly and got bad tire wear... but the car steered just fine...

I had a Mazda in the 80s with a 4 cyl... one of the cyls cracked... after a few hundred miles the spark plug would foul and I would have to change it out for a clean one... I got real good at changing spark plugs... would take me less than 2 minutes... I also had a can collect oil from the EGR hose as it would pump oil into the carb if I did not redirect it...


So I guess option 3 was there...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 10:28 AM   #56
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Lsbcal's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: west coast, hi there!
Posts: 5,673
In 2009 our son bought a used 2008 Ford Fusion from a Ford dealership with a warranty still in place. It had been a rental for a short time. He loves it and it's been a no hassle car so far. It was a lot more then $6k though.

Anyway, I understand not wanting to go through the buying hassle. But just look at it as a life experience you have to go through from time to time.
__________________
Lsbcal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 11:01 AM   #57
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW_M5 View Post
Don't under estimate the safety in a well constructed smaller car vs a larger/heavier vehicle. That said, if the construction is equally well engineered, by all means opt for the heavier car.

Several years ago, my DS was t-boned by a car going 80+ mph in a residential neighborhood and survived that crash in a 2005 Honda civic. The firemen who cut him out of that car said in their opinion he would not have survived if he was in a bigger US built car like an F150 (common in that college town). In terms of crash worthyness, I am a believer in Honda built cars.
Yes, if I didn't come right out and say it, I always mean 'all other things being equal'.

In fact that did play into my decision when I bought my Volvo S40 in 2000. It was a little smaller than I might have bought otherwise (but still ~ 3100#, not as small as some of the cars we are talking about). Volvos were at least perceived to be of a high safety level for their class, so that would somewhat offset a few hundred pounds of mass.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 11:07 AM   #58
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
One of the silliest ideas that I have heard.

Yea, but.............. locally it is cool for testosterone poisoned kids to drive 4WD drive pickups 1 foot off your rear bumper in the slipperiest of weather. Kinda like waving around a loaded gun.
__________________
Yes, I have achieved work / life balance.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 01:19 PM   #59
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by glippy View Post
The arms race in buying ever-heavier vehicles is out of control. I think we should think about making criminal and civil liability with car-related incidents proportional to the gross weight of the vehicle you're driving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
One of the silliest ideas that I have heard.
Nothing will change the American vehicle size "arms race" until gasoline is considered expensive and/or scarce. See Europe and most other non-OPEC countries...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2012, 03:23 PM   #60
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
One of the silliest ideas that I have heard.
True, and it is doing well against some pretty stiff competition for silly ideas.
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I need help with roofing decision Grainiac Other topics 42 04-08-2012 11:59 AM
A/C Car Recharge easysurfer Other topics 17 04-02-2012 11:46 AM
How Can I Avoid $$$ Car Maintenance? ERD50 Other topics 67 03-10-2012 11:04 AM
Should we downsize to one car kfindley79 Other topics 26 02-24-2012 10:53 AM
How to fix whatever ails you haha Health and Early Retirement 18 02-20-2012 11:06 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:24 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.