Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-18-2007, 09:51 AM   #21
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum View Post
it would tell a story sadder than suicide, that killing does not weigh heavily on the mind.
Good observation, LGFNB.

With that, I'll respectfully bow out of this thread. As I said earlier, I'm tired of manipulations by articles like that. No offense to the OP, or any other posters. I'm just tired of it. My heart goes out to anyone who has/is experiencing the horrors of war.

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 11-18-2007, 11:12 AM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
What if the suicide rate was less than the general population? What would that say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum View Post
it would tell a story sadder than suicide, that killing does not weigh heavily on the mind.

as to all the survivors and all the suicides, heros all.

"if we could read the secret history of our enemies we should find in each person's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility." ~~henry wadsworth longfellow
As you are still alive it appears that killing does not weigh heavily on your mind. Do you plan on showing it does by committing suicide?
__________________

__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 12:40 PM   #23
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
lazygood4nothinbum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,895
Quote:
Originally Posted by dex View Post
A. How do the numbers compare to the general public?
B. Are the numbers presented all of a specific statistical population or of various statistical population...It appears to solely ascribe the suicides to war. We know that there can be many factors that can cause mental depression and suicide.
since in the general population proportionately more young gays commit suicide than do young str8s, by your reasoning perhaps it seems more likely that there's a bit more don't telling going among those who do. or maybe the sissies just can't handle the stresses of war so well. but that's not where my mind goes. stats don't mean squat when yer dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dex View Post
As you are still alive it appears that killing does not weigh heavily on your mind. Do you plan on showing it does by committing suicide?
is that just your lovely way of telling me to drop dead or a crack of recognition that those who actually do kill even in the name of patriotism might require more support than your statistical average american. it is not weakness to show your humanity. there is no shame in allowing life into your heart even when your head can't take it.

i've noted on a past post how so very lucky i recognize myself to be that i came of age in an age of relative peace, between vietnam and the gulf war. i don't know for certain how it would have effected me as no one ever called upon me to kill nor have i ever even told anyone to drop dead. that i haven't taken the latter lightly hints at how heavy for me the former might have been regardless of your twisted logic concerning what might weigh upon my mind.

if only you had more statistics at hand to hide behind perhaps you could have better camouflaged your personal attack.
__________________
"off with their heads"~~dr. joseph-ignace guillotin

"life should begin with age and its privileges and accumulations, and end with youth and its capacity to splendidly enjoy such advantages."~~mark twain - letter to edward kimmitt 1901
lazygood4nothinbum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 09:54 PM   #24
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 213
This is one of the most interesting threads I have read here. No one that has posted has been in Iraq for a tour or two so I am not sure we have the best frame of reference. The closest I am to the current war is a dear friends son who is in his second tour. He went to West Point and is serving his payback. I recently saw him on his two week leave and he is so gaunt and distracted it is worrysome to me.

In the past I worked as a nurse at a VA. PTSD is not to be taken lightly. It is true that many come back from war and are able to assimilate into society. Some never are the same and turn to drink, drugs or end up homeless or as criminals. Would they have ended up that way without war? Who knows. We make a promise to our soldiers to take care of them and it is our responsibility to live up to that.

The only fact I know is every war is horrible. Read your history. It does not matter if you were drafted, volunteered, had no other options or felt it was your duty to enlist. Look at any headline today and many young people with no connection to the military are struggling with debt, having a terrible time breaking into the housing market or keeping a house while paying for rising health care. Affordable good health insurance, pensions and social security we all have benefited from are rapidly vanishing. Add to that coming home from a war zone and trying to find your place.

One of the easiest things to do is sit on a pile of money and judge others.
I have no idea of the validity of suicide rates among veterans and the comparison to the general population. However I do know that many young people are in big trouble. Add to that the horrors of war and the mix is quite dangerous.
__________________
52andout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 11:40 AM   #25
Dryer sheet aficionado
One-Zero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44
52andout:"No one that has posted has been in Iraq for a tour or two so I am not sure we have the best frame of reference."

I'm game - 4 tours IZ and 2 tours AF, plus El Sal ('87/'90), Panama ('89), Desert Storm ('91) Somalia ('93/'04) and various others that haven't been blown yet...
I didn't intend to post ref this thread after reading the link...typical CBS. Some folks have mentioned inconsistencies already. But here are my comments


I've dealt with some suicides over the years - none were directly related to any combat exposure. I say 'directly' because any additional stressors to an existing problem will certainly push someone closer to the act if not recognized/addressed.

As for: "Look at any headline today and many young people with no connection to the military are struggling with debt, having a terrible time breaking into the housing market or keeping a house while paying for rising health care. Affordable good health insurance, pensions and social security we all have benefited from are rapidly vanishing. Add to that coming home from a war zone and trying to find your place."

I think that sums it up rather well in that all our folks are in the same boat...any stressor (war, law enforcement, bad-home, family death or no family, drugs, alcohol etc) exacerbates the problems.

I understand the OP did not intend for this to be a political post, but CBS and the Huffington post most certainly did - the track record speaks for itself...if you look at how they broke the stats you will find you can pretty much make any demographic look pretty harrowing - they want you to concentrate on the inference vice sourcing/validity.

Before I cut out, I wish to make something very clear; A very small percentage of our folks serving are actually involved in "combat". Special Operators experience action daily(nightly actually), the USMC/Army Infantry on a pretty much daily basis, though not always engaging actively. Other folks attached to the two above (medics, engineers, specialists of various sorts) also have exposure every now & then. But the vast majority are in extremely well protected bases with quite a few amenities from home available - it sucks, but it ain't like shaking brain matter & bone shards off your sleeves either...I'm pretty hard on my fellow vets - all of us do our j*b as trained, but even fewer go in harms way to an extent the horrific nature of man is revealed in a way that will stick with you..."Served in Iraq/Afg" means nothing to me other than thanks for doing your duty. The vast majority have never even seen an enemy combatant...and are perhaps only reminded of the war when an errant mortar round impacts in their perimeter.

regards,
1-0
__________________
One-Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 01:54 PM   #26
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by One-Zero View Post
Before I cut out, I wish to make something very clear; A very small percentage of our folks serving are actually involved in "combat". Special Operators experience action daily(nightly actually), the USMC/Army Infantry on a pretty much daily basis, though not always engaging actively. Other folks attached to the two above (medics, engineers, specialists of various sorts) also have exposure every now & then. But the vast majority are in extremely well protected bases with quite a few amenities from home available - it sucks, but it ain't like shaking brain matter & bone shards off your sleeves either...I'm pretty hard on my fellow vets - all of us do our j*b as trained, but even fewer go in harms way to an extent the horrific nature of man is revealed in a way that will stick with you..."Served in Iraq/Afg" means nothing to me other than thanks for doing your duty. The vast majority have never even seen an enemy combatant...and are perhaps only reminded of the war when an errant mortar round impacts in their perimeter.

regards,
1-0
Thanks for your post; I think it was Senator Webb who indicated that there is no other comparable human experience in human life to direct combat in war. There are also pockets of our diplomatic/foreign service who though not engaged in combat -- are facing some of the same risks as our servicemen in combat. Enemy snipers will take anyone out, including our foreign service officers working in the provinces and guarded, in cases, only by private contractors.
__________________
ChrisC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 03:51 PM   #27
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by 52andout View Post
I recently saw him on his two week leave and he is so gaunt and distracted it is worrysome to me.
I've seen that in a half-dozen graduates of the Ranger School...
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 03:55 PM   #28
Dryer sheet aficionado
One-Zero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 44
ChrisC - good point, apart from military , there are unprecedented numbers of civilians working in the 'combat' zones; the DipSvc/FSO folks you mention as well as those from various other USG components working as Govt civilians along with the contractors who provide support from building living pods, cooking, laundry service to private security as you mentioned. all this frees up Mil folks to do their job directed towards the mission at hand.

These civilians live in the same locales/conditions as the services. As with my previous post - only a handful are exposed to direct 'combat' and are usually working in conjunction with units that are predisposed to such risk. The Civilian agencies do address stress issues for those deploying...the contractors are on their own for the most part. I'm currently immersed with all three groups at this point (USG Civvie, Contractors, & Mil)

It should be noted that these conditions have ALWAYs existed for our Mil/CIV people overseas working in austere conditions and under ever present threat of actions against Americans... (ie, Beirut, Jakarta, Bogota, Damascus, etc...)

Though my goal is ER (as fast as possible!!!)...My current job involves passing knowledge onto those Civ/Mil going in harms way - prevention is the best medicine right?!
I also provide input to the appropriate agency/unit when they send someone over that I identify as having some potential problems down the road - that may cost their compadres or themselves. Suicide is taken VERY seriously...but like so many other problems people exhibit, I think those around the person in question may err towards underestimating the internal battle going on. One must never be embarrassed to ask and act.

Nords-just saw your post as I submitted this...You're indeed correct, most guys who've been deployed would consider it a break compared to the Ranger Suckfest as far as sleep and chow go!!

regards,
1-0
__________________
One-Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 07:22 PM   #29
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by One-Zero View Post
I also provide input to the appropriate agency/unit when they send someone over that I identify as having some potential problems down the road - that may cost their compadres or themselves. Suicide is taken VERY seriously...but like so many other problems people exhibit, I think those around the person in question may err towards underestimating the internal battle going on. One must never be embarrassed to ask and act.
At my final training command we had three instructors (one of whom had just transferred to sea duty) commit suicide over a three-year period. Two were submariners and a third was a Navy diver. All were fairly experienced-- a chief petty officer and two E-6s with each over a decade of service. All had been Sailors of the Year at various commands and were considered leaders (especially the CPO, who was legendary around the waterfront). No warning signs, no "cries for help", not even a clue (I had to conduct one of the investigations and assist investigators with the other two). All planned ahead. All used high-powered handguns against their temples. All made sure that there wouldn't be any physical mess to clean up. One of them killed his wife and shot her boyfriend into quadriplegia before killing himself.

In each case there was no indication that anything was wrong or even weighing on their minds. All three had completed physical exams, chain of command interviews, and psychiatric interviews before becoming instructors (in the case of the killer, less than a week before). There wasn't even a whisper of hope for anyone to have an opportunity to intervene.

During the subsequent investigations it became clear that for two of these shipmates there were "little" problems, that they nudged aside (or under the rug) during sea duty, that could no longer be ignored on shore duty. One problem source was an abusive CO and two were marital. All were well-known at the time and all three appeared to be successfully dealing with their issues. (The E-6s had even attended the CPO's funeral, seen the effect of his actions on his family, and knew why he had killed himself.) Yet despite their appearances of coping, a short time later each shipmate had been subject to a triggering event that caused them to commit to a course of action exactly as if their decisions had been taken from a Navy standard emergency-procedures handbook. They had thought things through and two of them even evaded security forces to carry out their actions. When the triggering events happened they didn't call anyone to discuss it. Just like their training they acted quickly, firmly, and with no hesitation.

I'm no longer a believer in suicide "prevention" training. I won't even listen if the trainer has never known someone who committed suicide. If a person wants help then they'll either give pretty straightforward clues or they'll just come right out and ask for it. If someone's already made their contingency plans, however, then we won't be able to do a thing unless Murphy's Law intervenes.

I have learned to trust my instincts, no matter how anal they may appear to be. If something doesn't seem right then by golly, it sure isn't.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 09:55 PM   #30
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
lazygood4nothinbum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,895
even if we can not teach others at least we can learn from them.
__________________
"off with their heads"~~dr. joseph-ignace guillotin

"life should begin with age and its privileges and accumulations, and end with youth and its capacity to splendidly enjoy such advantages."~~mark twain - letter to edward kimmitt 1901
lazygood4nothinbum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2007, 10:59 PM   #31
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by lazygood4nothinbum View Post

is that just your lovely way of telling me to drop dead or a crack of recognition
Nothing very complicated - just that your logic is off.
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 05:43 AM   #32
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 213
Glad to see these recent posts. It is true that there are many military that never see a second of combat or are exposed to harrowing life threatening situations. I know that I am very biased due to working at the VA as well as seeing my friends son. He did the door to door thing in Baghdad when it was much less stable than now. About a week before they were due home several were killed and three more badly injured. For the second tour he is on a more remote base but still there was an attack and several of his buddies died. Getting in and out of the country can be harrowing as well.
He can get out next year, however he will need to be in the ready reserve and can go back.
The problem I see is there is little in the news, and frankly people don't seem to care. If we don't get ourselves out of this mess or get into Iran I would not be surprised to see a draft. If that happens, you can bet there will be a lot more interest from the public.

This thanksgiving we should all remember that we would not be able to enjoy the freedoms we have if it weren't for the brave men and women who served in the military as well as the countless others who support them in some way either through their work or personally.
Again, the news program may be sensationalized or the facts twisted but the fact remains we have many young men and women exposed to things that will change them forever.
__________________
52andout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2007, 08:51 AM   #33
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 898
52andout, that's a very perceptive post. Sensational journalism is sometimes needed to grab the public's attention; I find it incredible sometimes how we can become de-sensitized to really bad news. (The Great Tangshan Earthquake Disaster of 1976 comes to mind where up to 250,000 people died. ) Really bad news justs becomes a statistic.

Growing up in the Vietnam Era , one can become very cynical about our Government and our citizens. Once the draft ended during the Vietnam Era, I found the intensity of the war protests to drop significantly. I think Charlie Rangel has it right, if a draft were instituted the general public would become more connected to the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and the potential for even more frightening problems if Pakistan spins out of control. Clearly when you have "skin in the game," our political leaders and others become more connected to things.

So maybe the press doesn't get the story "right" with the precision we demand for statisticians, but it does us a service by keeping some generally accurate information out there.
__________________

__________________
ChrisC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Feds/vets: Have you maxed your TSP contribution yet? Nords FIRE and Money 25 03-07-2015 09:11 PM
11 Days of Christmas for NORDS and other vets FinallyRetired Other topics 2 05-26-2007 10:32 AM
How many Nam vets runnerr Other topics 32 05-10-2007 10:11 PM
Veteran's Day Gift to all you vets~Thanks for your service mickeyd Other topics 1 11-03-2006 12:42 PM
Theft of VA data (SSNs for 26.5 million vets) Nords Other topics 25 06-26-2006 03:42 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:32 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.