Changing "Classes"

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Maybe this should go to another thread if it is talked about..... But, I got an email talking about Donald Trump.... he is going down in class!!! According to the email, he is going from 30,000 sf penthouse apt that has very high amenities to a 20,000 sf house... Talk about slumming it...

And it's public housing, at that. Location isn't great - over a mile to the center of town. Virtually slumming it in the 'burbs if you ask me.

[AnIntentionalRoad]

I was born into a working class military family. I didn't realize how little we had growing up until I started meeting middle and upper-class people in my post-college career on the futures trading industry. There I met plenty of other working class guys but many trust fund babies who had a much more privileged background.

Through education, though, I've definitely outgrown those working class roots but still hold many of those values I learned, such as respect for others, hard work, value of money.

I've been in social situations with groups of working class guys who didn't know me well and been a bit singled out as "college boy" or "blue blood." They assume because of my education, vocabulary, previous vocations as a CEO, etc and judged me harshly for it.

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[Dash man]

Personally I dislike labels. They just cause divisions that lead to someone being disgruntled. We're all people that at some point in our lives can help others or need help from others in varying degrees.

[W2R]

Quote:

Originally Posted by easysurfer I've always thought of class as how someone acts and not a certain status of wealth or accomplishment attached to a person. Take pro athletes for example. Some make tons of money and are accomplished but not every athlete has class.

+1
I think that in America, class has more to do with attitudes, tastes, values, and mannerisms and doesn't have much to do with income or income sources.

I know some very well-to-do people who will always be working class because those are the attitudes, tastes, values, and mannerisms that they have acquired through the years. A term that is sometimes used for them is "nouveau riche", but that term is a little disparaging so I don't use it.

I also know some people who are not well off, but will always be upper class because they absorbed upper class attitudes, tastes, values, and mannerisms during their lives.

Personally I don't feel that I have changed at all when my financial situation has changed at various times in life.

[marko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by easysurfer I've always thought of class as how someone acts and not a certain status of wealth or accomplishment attached to a person. Take pro athletes for example. Some make tons of money and are accomplished but not every athlete has class.

To add another data point, around my neck of the woods, for those that pay attention to these things it's not so much about income.

It's a matter of "old money" and "new money" with the term 'new money' often used to denigrate those who might behave too loud, too showy or overly flashy often leading to slow acceptance to certain circles.

Rodney Dangerfield in Caddyshack was new money.

[Nemo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by W2R A term that is sometimes used for them is "nouveau riche", but that term is a little disparaging so I don't use it.

"Parvenues" being another.

[brewer12345]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnIntentionalRoad I've been in social situations with groups of working class guys who didn't know me well and been a bit singled out as "college boy" or "blue blood." They assume because of my education, vocabulary, previous vocations as a CEO, etc and judged me harshly for it.

I find that when everyone involved is wearing fishing clothes/camo and holding a fishing rod/shotgun, these sorts of issues do not really come up. Lucky for me...

[RobbieB]

I've always been middle class and always will be.

[hesperus]

don' think about it much, it does seem a bit pretentious tho

[2017ish]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsmeow ... The other thing is my kids. I've never thought of myself as pretentious and I didn't really make a big deal about class. But, we lived in a nice neighborhood.... Anyway, once when we sold a house a few years ago we rented for awhile in a true middle class neighborhood. We did this while we were looking for a new house to buy. My kids complained that it wasn't a nice neighborhood and they thought it was basically a poor neighborhood. It wasn't. It was just a standard middle class neighborhood. I thought it was fine and felt it was fine to live in (houses weren't big enough for us at the time but they were fine). It was eye opening to me. I see myself as middle class and I can fit comfortably into that world. Even though I never talked to my kids about class they were nonetheless raised in an upper middle class environment and see that as the norm.

+1. Our kids experienced a very different upbringing than either of us, for both good and bad. We tried to limit the bad, and think we managed to do ok--but they have a very different mindset coming out of an MD/JD family, even though they were driving a 300,000 mile minivan in their high school years and their clothes were coming from target, WMT, and goodwill...

[braumeister]

Quote:

Well they said you was high-classed Well, that was just a lie Yeah they said you was high-classed Well, that was just a lie Well, you ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzQ8GDBA8Is

[Koogie]

I'll venture an opinion as a "dirty furriner"

Americans are often more uncomfortable than other nationalities with talking about or acknowledging classes. It seems "undemocratic" or pretentious to say there are different socio-economic classes of Americans.

But, there are. (some would say increasingly so but I'm not sure I agree with that)

It is true that western countries, like the US, have very high levels of social mobility but acknowledging that fact also acknowledges that there are different classes to move between.

For my part, I come from a poor-ish rural background (I literally had **** between my toes on the family farm until age 16).

But, I went to a technical college (like my immigrant father did) and am more or less a "grey" collar worker (and small business owner). So, from the peasant class to the boringly middle class.

My sister also followed the same route but my brother went for multiple degrees and professional designations and made many, many millions and is definitely upper middle class.

One class is definitely not better than the other nor do they come with any inherent moral superiority. But pretending they doesn't exist is kind of dishonest too.

[braumeister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koogie It is true that western countries, like the US, have very high levels of social mobility but acknowledging that fact also acknowledges that there are different classes to move between. … One class is definitely not better than the other nor do they come with any inherent moral superiority. But pretending they doesn't exist is kind of dishonest too.

Very well said.

[38Chevy454]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koogie One class is definitely not better than the other nor do they come with any inherent moral superiority. But pretending they doesn't exist is kind of dishonest too.

I think it comes down to definition. As many have discussed here, economic class is just one way to look at it. Moral class or social class are additional methods to describe class.

I view myself as economically in middle class, and tend to dress and act that way. I just have the ability to buy nice stuff if I want to without a major sacrifice, which is above middle class. The key being want to, I rarely want to spend money on stuff. Planning early retirement is definitely a difference from typical economic definition of middle class. It does not make me any better from moral class standpoint or social class standpoint.

I'm just a well educated mechanic in my mind, that likes to work on his hot rods.

[Closet_Gamer]

We grew up lower middle class.

I don't "think" of myself as any class in particular but several years ago I acknowledged to myself that I'm no longer middle class in the sense of having middle class financial concerns. I'm very attentive to my investments but I haven't made a "hard" financial decision in years. I don't face the "vacation or retirement savings" trade-off. Gas prices are a mere curiosity. My kids will go to college comfortably -- their only debt being how much of it I choose to make them pay back. Someone hit my car yesterday and the $1000 deductible is a nuisance, not a real financial problem.

I have intentionally maintained an "upper middle class" LBYM lifestyle because I think it's good for the kids and I want to FIRE...but it's the inverse of "big hat no cattle." Just because we live middle class doesn't mean we are in the fuller sense of middle class concerns and pressures.

I think it's important to be self aware of these realities. Not for a sense of self-satisfaction but to avoid the "let them eat cake, I don't know why they think this is so hard" subtext that can come to subtly infect the thinking of people who have substantial means.

My $0.02.

[travelover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krotoole ...........I think it's important to be self aware of these realities. Not for a sense of self-satisfaction but to avoid the "let them eat cake, I don't know why they think this is so hard" subtext that can come to subtly infect the thinking of people who have substantial means...........

Yes, this resonates with me. Some of the most valuable assets passed on to me were lessons in living within my means and the knowledge of how to avoid getting screwed over by forces and individuals that help keep the down, down.

[stepford]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koogie my brother went for multiple degrees and professional designations and made many, many millions and is definitely upper middle class.

What does it take to be upper class if not making many many millions? There seems to be a reluctance among anyone short of Gates, Buffet and Zuckerberg to self identify as anything but some sort of middle class.

[Nemo2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepford What does it take to be upper class if not making many many millions? There seems to be a reluctance among anyone short of Gates, Buffet and Zuckerberg to self identify as anything but some sort of middle class.

'Upper class' is suggestive of aristocracy, and they're concerned that Madame Defarge might make an appearance one day.

[Meadbh]

Here is an interesting survey from Prof. Mike Savage of the London School of Economics. Historically, the British concept of "class" has been very bound up in one's ancestry. Savage's research on Social Class in the 21st Century takes into account economic, cultural and social factors. At the end, there is a survey. Somewhat surprisingly, I tested as Elite. I would have said I was solidly middle class. Perhaps the fact that I am not British had something to do with it.

What is your 21st Century social class? - BBC News

[KMyer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepford What does it take to be upper class if not making many many millions? There seems to be a reluctance among anyone short of Gates, Buffet and Zuckerberg to self identify as anything but some sort of middle class.

You have asked the question that I have been asking myself before I started this thread. I have found that I have kept increasing my own personal minimum required net worth threshold to no longer be deemed to be part of the "middle class" or "working class". It is now ten times the number that I had in mind when I graduated from college. Based on the comments, I may not be as abnormal as I thought. It seems like everyone wants to self-identify themselves as being part of the middle class.

Thanks for your comments.