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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-23-2006, 06:14 PM   #41
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Hmmm

Vague memory says I was marginally involved with a 1967 NASA version - used the discharge to drive "really big titanium rivets". The units charged quickly with factory 200/440 volt power.

Was adapted from a New Orleans version 'mag hammer' to take dings/oil cans out of Saturn rocket tanks.

Would be interesting to see if they have evolved significantly for auto use.

I wonder if we'll revisit compressed air, stored flywheel energy, and the steam or freon engine concepts of the past.

evolution not revolution

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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-23-2006, 10:08 PM   #42
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by mb
I question the electric vehicle market strategy though. *If it is really that good they should go after the portable electronics market first. *That is a real market and they would get rich a lot fast that way. * It is a lot easier and a lot faster to market to make an energy storage device for a cell phone or a computer and you can sell it for a lot more money per unit energy. *Then you go after the other markets such as hybrids, pure EVs, portable tools, etc.
That is actually a very good description of exactly what Tesla Motors has done and where they came from.

Most of the founders are people that made their money in dot-com businesses. Starting with the batteries, they built the engine around that, then the car around the engine.

Battery technology has made a lot of advancements. I suspect we are right on the cusp of the technology being mass-marketable.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 10:25 AM   #43
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by mb
I question the electric vehicle market strategy though. *If it is really that good they should go after the portable electronics market first. *
Agreed MB. Even the new Tesla electric car uses same-old Lithium Ion technology commonly found in computer and cell phone batteries for many years. The only difference is that they've figured out an efficient way to interconnect many, many cells together into a six ton block.

I do believe that when truly new technology appears, it will be within current applications such as cell phones or laptops.

We need a real break through in batteries.........
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 11:00 AM   #44
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

http://mb-soft.com/public2/storing.html

Above page gives comparisons of energy storage methods. It takes a lot of batteries to equal a gallon of gas.

Lets not forget that the electricity to charge the batteries must be generated.

http://mb-soft.com/public2/storing.html

So the electric car is really a coal/nuclear/natural gas/water/petroleum powered car.

From the article:

Nonwater renewable sources of electricity generation presently contribute only small amounts (about 2 percent) to total power production.

Where will we get the additional fuel to supply the increased electric demand if everyone switches to electric cars? We would need additional power distribution infrastructure to handle transporting the power to the charging stations.

And how will we handle recycling the used batteries?

Increased demand for electricity would drive up the cost per KWH.

I don't think there is an easy solution here.

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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 11:24 AM   #45
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus
http://mb-soft.com/public2/storing.html
Where will we get the additional fuel to supply the increased electric demand if everyone switches to electric cars?
Given the price of natural gas, coal fired power plants are currently in vogue. Nuclear is again under consideration but nobody has committed to building a plant given the high construction cost and risks.

Renewable power, mostly wind, is getting serious investment but it will never amount to more than a fraction of the total supply needed. This is largely due to the fact that it is unreliable (the wind doesn't blow just because someone turns their dishwasher on). A large percentage of wind (or solar, hydro, etc.) can create reliability problems for the local distribution companies, limiting its overall usefulness as an alternative energy source.

Burning fosil fuels and splitting atoms is still the best way to generate electricity, and will be for the foreseeable future.

I can't wait until environmentalists start complaining about the disposal of all those used batteries once electric cars become popular.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 12:37 PM   #46
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
We need a real break through in batteries.........
Submarine batteries haven't substantially changed in a century-- still lead-acid technology with incremental improvements.

The last big step forward was fueled by Cold-War funding for the OHIO class... nearly 25 years ago. Tighter tolerances squeezed out a few more amp-hours and higher discharge rates, but most of the improvements were in personnel safety.

I don't know how much of DARPA's budget goes to this research, but I'm sure that all five services are pounding on their respective logistics staffs for ultimate batteries.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 02:13 PM   #47
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Even if all the electicity came from coal burning plants you are still burning half the fossil fuels to get the same mileage as the electric motor is roughly twice as efficient as the internal combustion engine.

Lead to nickel batteries was a major breakthrough as was lithium when they became available. While lead and nickel batteries are toxic, Lithium batteries are not so disposal is easier.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 02:41 PM   #48
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Some of us in coastal areas wonder how tidal energy could be used without detrmental impact. I don't want turbine blades chopping up sea creatures, but all that ebb and flow surely could be put to work.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 06:15 PM   #49
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
If it is really that good they should go after the portable electronics market first.
Yes, but 400 pounds is too heavy for an iPod. Ha ha.

But seriously, current batteries work pretty well for portable electronics. They don't quite cut it for electric cars, so that might be a good market to go after.

---------------

It's interesting that nuclear plants were so heavily protested by environmentalists, and now it turns out that they are good for the environment, greenhouse-gas-wise.

---------------

Ocean wave generation is being pursued out here. They were planning a test device near us a while ago. It consisted of large bouys a few miles out to sea that generated power from the up and down motion of the waves.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 06:51 PM   #50
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathras
Even if all the electicity came from coal burning plants you are still burning half the fossil fuels to get the same mileage as the electric motor is roughly twice as efficient as the internal combustion engine.

Lead to nickel batteries was a major breakthrough as was lithium when they became available. While lead and nickel batteries are toxic, Lithium batteries are not so disposal is easier.
Don't forget the battery losses and the transmission losses to the battery chargers.
The fact remains that the storage density of lead acid batterys does not approach that of a gallon of gasoline.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 07:54 PM   #51
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Lazarus,

That is what I thought too. However after more research the efficiency is still twice that of the internal combustion engine with all that included.

If you are interested, there is a whitepaper and more info at http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/?p=8
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 10:30 PM   #52
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
Some of us in coastal areas wonder how tidal energy could be used without detrmental impact.* I don't want turbine blades chopping up sea creatures, but all that ebb and flow surely could be put to work.
Seems to me I read that someone is working on a wave energy generator whereas the up and down motion of a bouy tethered to an anchored generator produces electricity. This would probably only saw sea serpents in half.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-24-2006, 10:41 PM   #53
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

larry: Here's one:

http://engr.oregonstate.edu/news/ar/...aveenergy.html
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-25-2006, 11:48 AM   #54
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

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Seems to me I read that someone is working on a wave energy generator whereas the up and down motion of a bouy tethered to an anchored generator produces electricity.* This would probably only saw sea serpents in half.
All that chop off the mouth of the Columbia should be good for something more than sinking boats.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-25-2006, 07:06 PM   #55
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathras
Lazarus,

That is what I thought too. However after more research the efficiency is still twice that of the internal combustion engine with all that included.

If you are interested, there is a whitepaper and more info at http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/?p=8
From the white paper on the Tesla car batteries:

“However even with this high energy density, the lithium-ion batteries in the Tesla Roadster only store the energy equivalent of about eight liters of gasoline; a very small amount of energy for a typical vehicle. “

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eight Liters of gas is 2.11 US Gallons. If the car can go 250 miles on one charge that figures to an equivalent of 118 miles per gallon! A very efficient car indeed. I have not tried to calculate the cost of charging it every day.

I found the white papers well balanced and they pointed out the shortcoming of their design as well as the advantages.

A range of 250 miles would be sufficient for all my driving needs except out of town trips.

The cost of the car must be comparable to a gas car for me to consider buying one.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-25-2006, 07:48 PM   #56
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Yeah, the first model is going to be comparably priced. Unfortunately the first model is a roadster that does 0-60 in 4 seconds. So a comparable Lotus or Jag that can do that means about 90k I believe.

They are currently planning a sports-sedan for about half the price of the roadster in 2008. They then plan to follow that in another year or two with a family sedan.
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