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Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-20-2006, 08:09 PM   #1
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Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

This president has got to be the dumbest mother efer we have ever had!

We keep buying oil from the scumiest bast@rds on the planet like Chavez and the saudis but put a large tariff on Brazilian ethanol to protect the republican voting midwestern farmers who vote republican!!!

I am sick of this BS!

Could you imagine what would happen IF bush came out and said we would drop the ethanol tariff with Brazil and buy LESS SAUDI and Venezula oil

Sorry but they would YES THEY would start to be very concerned in those two countries.

But alas we have an idiot for a president!
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-20-2006, 08:13 PM   #2
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Buy the way that speech Hugo gave today at the UN was efin wild. I mean he said the place still smelled like sulfur from Bush being there yesterday!!

Sorry but I had to laugh, I really believe we have one of the dumbest presidents of all time.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-20-2006, 08:57 PM   #3
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

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Originally Posted by newguy888

Sorry but they would YES THEY would start to be very concerned in those two countries.
They'd be very concerned indeed!!! Imagine the impact on the Saudi economy if they lost the 3% of total auto fuel consumption in the US that ethanol represents.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-20-2006, 10:45 PM   #4
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

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They'd be very concerned indeed!!! Imagine the impact on the Saudi economy if they lost the 3% of total auto fuel consumption in the US that ethanol represents.
It's a start. We have to start somewhere.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 05:01 AM   #5
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

I'm troubled by tarrifs, too. But, if we think ethanol might enable us to be increasingly self-sufficient in fuel production, then we need to develop our domestic production capability (especially production of ethanol based on switchgrass or corn stalks, etc--production using corn only makes sense as a bridge to this, it can never make sense economicaly and it isn't a big winner environmentally). We won't deveop this industry if the US ethanol market is floodd with cheaper Brazillian ethanol.

If we don't care about having our own ethanol production in the US, I'd sa let the cheap Brazillian ethanol flow in. But, it won't be cheap for long, and this could make fuel more expensive in Brazil, to their own peril. But, that's how markets work..
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 09:25 AM   #6
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
we have one of the dumbest presidents of all time.
don't hold back ... tell us how you really feel.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 10:38 AM   #7
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Hello everyone,

Iīm from Brazil and couldnīt agree more with the owner of the topic. Ethanol is used large scale here in Brazil. I guess more than 50% of our cars are Flex - can use either Gasoline or Ethanol, the engine does all the math and just works. We are already developing the Trifuel - Gasoline, Ethanol or natural gas, which is great. Because of this, Brazil achieved this year itīs independence from Petroleum.

What I also know is that the US and other countries are concerned about the use of ethanol as an energy source, as this would be great for Brazil, the leader in production, despite US coming second. Besides that, Iīm sure that there is a HUGE lobby from american oil companies, like Exxonmobil, texaco, etc.

I agree, however, with newguy888, because Brazil is just so much more stable politically than those arabs and chavez. The US is also in the second place in the production of ethanol. Therefore, if the americans were smart they would push VERY hard toward this relatively clean (and infinite) source of energy in order to cope with the gigantic demand for gasoline, but sadly bush is tied with those oil companies.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 10:48 AM   #8
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Ummm, etoh works in Brazil because sugar cane in that climate produces an enormous amount of usable energy without much in the way of energy inputs. In the US, we currently have to use corn to make etoh in commercial quantities, and this requires a LOT of water and energy inputs, so much so that it appears that etoh is a net energy user (not producer). Unless we an come up with a way to make etoh out of waste products, etc., etoh in the US is little more than a pipe dream/pork barrel giveaway to the farm states.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 10:53 AM   #9
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Ummm, etoh works in Brazil because sugar cane in that climate produces an enormous amount of usable energy without much in the way of energy inputs.* In the US, we currently have to use corn to make etoh in commercial quantities, and this requires a LOT of water and energy inputs, so much so that it appears that etoh is a net energy user (not producer).* Unless we an come up with a way to make etoh out of waste products, etc., etoh in the US is little more than a pipe dream/pork barrel giveaway to the farm states.
We are not going to have a choice. the Iranians the Saudis all are garbage. The Middle eastern oil will stop flowing the day we bomb Iran over the nuke problem, and watch what happens to the oil infrastructure of saudi arabia!

Look we MUST get off oil from the scum of the earth . Venezula? Please the nut says the UN still smelled of Sulfur!! Bush the devil? Funny but we STILL BUY HIS OIL!!! That IS NUTS!

Sorry we can find a way. Oops we would rather build homes in the way of hurricanes in Florida and the gulf coast instead of sugar cane which would grow there!
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 10:54 AM   #10
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

What disturbed me most about the speach yesterday wasn't that Chavez called Bush the devil, it was the response from the representatives of the world that were there.

They didn't walk out, they didn't object, they didn't respond with silence, they laughed.

As for ethonal, Honda has recently announce a breakthrough to allow them to produce ethonal from 'junk' vegetative sources (switchgrass and stalks and such). *If we can get that technology we can do a lot more with it (could help GM as well).

Combined with electric cars we can take another bite out of our oil imports. *The quicker we can get off mideast oil the better for us.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 11:02 AM   #11
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

And americans will re elect the same @ssholes this fall.

Nothing will ever change.

Gonna buy a bike, pedal power. Ef all of em.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 11:07 AM   #12
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy888
We are not going to have a choice. the Iranians the Saudis all are garbage. The Middle eastern oil will stop flowing the day we bomb Iran over the nuke problem, and watch what happens to the oil infrastructure of saudi arabia!

Look we MUST get off oil from the scum of the earth . Venezula? Please the nut says the UN still smelled of Sulfur!! Bush the devil? Funny but we STILL BUY HIS OIL!!! That IS NUTS!

Sorry we can find a way. Oops we would rather build homes in the way of hurricanes in Florida and the gulf coast instead of sugar cane which would grow there!
You don't appear to understand. *For corn-based etoh, the energy required to produce it and get it to market is greater than the energy content of the etoh. *So you are actually *using* energy by producing etoh.

We're not going to bomb Iran, and we will keep buying Venezuelan coal, oil, etc. *Chavez may be a bt of a clown, but he has a point: the US has become an obnoxious bully that needs to be shown up. *I'm not sure Chavez is the greatest person to do so, but the problem is clearly with us (specifically our leadership).

Oh yeah, and the reason there is any cane grown in the US at all is due to protectionist import restrictions on sugar, motivated by sleazy political back-scratching.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 01:44 PM   #13
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Oh, sorry, I was daydreaming about where we'd stand in this regard if Gore had been elected.

Quote:
For corn-based etoh, the energy required to produce it and get it to market is greater than the energy content of the etoh. So you are actually *using* energy by producing etoh.
I've seen conflicting reports on that (for example, here). What's your take on those reevaluations?
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 02:11 PM   #14
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

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I've seen conflicting reports on that (for example, here).* What's your take on those reevaluations?
Since I am not even close to being qualified to get into the nitty gritty there, I won't. But even if corn-based etoh produces double the BTUs that go into it, it still isn't a viable option for more than a tiny (and heavily subsidized) portion of our energy needs. If we can figure out the switchgrass thing or some kind of waste product (junk mail-based etoh, anyone?, maybe it will be viable, but I don't think its the panacea that the farm state Senators would like us to think it is.

And I note that nobody is even talking about the extra water it takes to grow all that corn. I recently read that a lot of farmland is being switched from wheat to corn since the price of the latter has jumped, but corn takes a LOT more water to grow. Water isn't a problem here in the mid-Atlantic where i am (please, take some of it), but those of you in the midwest/southwest can probably imagine why this could be a big problem.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 03:12 PM   #15
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Ummm, etoh works in Brazil because sugar cane in that climate produces an enormous amount of usable energy without much in the way of energy inputs.* In the US, we currently have to use corn to make etoh in commercial quantities, and this requires a LOT of water and energy inputs, so much so that it appears that etoh is a net energy user (not producer).
Sorry, all of Hawaii's sugarcane fields have already been replanted with houses.

Or corn. But it's really really cheap...
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 03:31 PM   #16
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

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Sorry, all of Hawaii's sugarcane fields have already been replanted with houses.

Or corn.* But it's really really cheap...
From what I hear, there is another cash crop in HI that is a lot more profitable than subsidized corn...
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 04:20 PM   #17
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Who needs oil or EtOH?* *Wouldn't we solve our energy crisis if everybody just bicycled to work?

Oops, maybe not.

THE ENVIRONMENTAL PARADOX OF BICYCLING
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 04:33 PM   #18
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Just skimmed the paper -- very interesting. But it seems like a paradox mainly if the bike rider drinks gasoline . . .
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 04:40 PM   #19
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Oh, sorry, I was daydreaming about where we'd stand in this regard if Gore had been elected.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....Instead of Iraq, Gore invaded Brazil for the ethanol. No prob with re-ups, we'd be beating recruits off with a stick, and torture would consist of the limbo and the macarena.
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol
Old 09-21-2006, 05:40 PM   #20
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Re: Chavez and oil Brazil and ethanol

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
From what I hear, there is another cash crop in HI that is a lot more profitable than subsidized corn...
Eric Schlosser points out in "Reefer Madness" that the growing conditions for corn and marijuana are so similar that they're frequently grown in the same field. *

Of course timing is critical so that the corn grows faster and stays taller...
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