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07-27-2010, 12:23 PM
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#1
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,127
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Chevy Volt
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Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
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07-27-2010, 12:31 PM
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#2
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,890
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Quite frankly, our local power grid can barely handle it when we all turn our A/C at the same time... So it would have to be seriously upgraded before we can all plug our car in.
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07-27-2010, 12:35 PM
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#3
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIREdreamer
Quite frankly, our local power grid can barely handle it when we all turn our A/C at the same time... So it would have to be seriously upgraded before we can all plug our car in.
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Not a problem - buy yourself a gasoline-powered generator.
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Numbers is hard
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07-27-2010, 12:43 PM
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#4
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,746
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My Hummer has a built in 8 cylinder gasoline power generator.
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Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (8, 13, and 15).
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07-27-2010, 12:47 PM
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#5
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIREdreamer
Quite frankly, our local power grid can barely handle it when we all turn our A/C at the same time... So it would have to be seriously upgraded before we can all plug our car in.
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This is a common misconception.
First, your supposition that the grid can't handle 'all' of us plugging our cars in, is not a reason for none of us to do so.
I agree that the current grid couldn't handle 100% EVs. However the current grid also couldn't handle the regular demand that will be present in 25 years (which is a guess at how long it would take until the entire light vehicle fleet to switch to EV).
Second, the majority of residential customers will be plugging in at night when there is plenty of spare capacity.
With a smart grid, EVs could even help with high demand times.
__________________
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
(Ancient Indian Proverb)"
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07-27-2010, 01:14 PM
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#6
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easysurfer
Looks like the new Chevy Volt is gonna cost around $41,000.
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Are electrics here to stay?
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no, not at that price; but yes for about half that.
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07-27-2010, 01:26 PM
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#7
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,880
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From some Internet searching, it looks like it will require about 8 KWH to charge one up, over a period of 6.5 hours. That means that the car will draw 1,230 watts -- essentially like a hair dryer.
A room air conditioner draws about 1,000 watts, and a central AC about 2,000-5,000.
The fact that they are charging at night is a big factor. Also, they won't be charging all the way every night.
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Al
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07-27-2010, 01:28 PM
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#8
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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If more and more EVs hit the road, it will be inevitable that we will see more and more variable pricing of energy to encourage charging the cars overnight instead of at 4 PM on a summer afternoon in Texas. But for now a small number won't make much of a dent. And at $41,000 per the target market (greenies with a lot money to put where their mouths are) is rather limited.
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"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
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07-27-2010, 01:37 PM
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#9
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright
Posts: 2,847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIREdreamer
Quite frankly, our local power grid can barely handle it when we all turn our A/C at the same time... So it would have to be seriously upgraded before we can all plug our car in.
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Sounds like it's time to build some nuclear power plants in this country.
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There is no pleasure in having nothing to do; the fun is having lots to do and not doing it. - Andrew Jackson
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07-27-2010, 01:59 PM
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#10
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 53
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relevant: Grid managers debate the effects of charging 1 million new electric vehicles — Autoblog Green
The volt is overly expensive; Chevy fails again. Meanwhile Tesla is going to be producing the 2012 Electric Rav 4 for Toyota.
You can get a roadster for a bit more than the Volt. You will also have the ~20k Nissan Leaf and the ~18k Smart Fortwo Electric.
We have to go to a smart grid anyway. I think they are here to stay this time. As a car lover; gas cars aren't going anywhere.
You could watch this, even though it is about a hydrogen; what Jay Leno has to say is pretty awesome:
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07-27-2010, 02:08 PM
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#11
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,127
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I really like Jay Leno's garage. He reviewed the Telsa too sometime back.
The Leaf would be a nice car for short errands. But 50 miles one way is too short until their are more charging stations around.
Just read recently that Honda decided to drop diesels and focus on Hybrids.
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
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07-27-2010, 03:53 PM
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#12
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Palma de Mallorca
Posts: 1,419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
From some Internet searching, it looks like it will require about 8 KWH to charge one up, over a period of 6.5 hours. That means that the car will draw 1,230 watts -- essentially like a hair dryer.
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I'm a little skeptical about that number of 8KwH. If 100% efficient, that would nominally let you run the car at 8KW for an hour. 8KW is 11HP. The car looks like a standard mid-range sedan to me, the kind that would have a 1.8-litre 140HP engine in Europe and a 2.7-litre V6 (with not much more power) in the US. At 11HP it would be going about 25mph for an hour. At highway speeds I've give it about 8 minutes.
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07-27-2010, 03:58 PM
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#13
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,127
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Here we go. If in Californa, you can get one of these:
Aptera Homepage | Aptera Motors
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
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07-27-2010, 04:18 PM
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#14
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigNick
I'm a little skeptical about that number of 8KwH...
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My understanding is the Volt has a 16KwH battery. However, for battery management to extend the life of the batteries, it is generally only discharged down to about 40% and only filled to about 90%.
I will be very interested to see the real life electric range as well as the mileage when in charge sustaining mode.
__________________
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
(Ancient Indian Proverb)"
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07-27-2010, 04:25 PM
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#15
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 13,127
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I think for a purely EV (I'm talking something like the Leaf, not Volt) what would be acceptable is as many charging stations as gas stations, a 250 mile range and a 10 minute recharge time. That's if the EV was used like a regular car.
On the other hand, as a second car, just to go and get groceries, something like the Leaf is tempting.
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
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07-27-2010, 06:32 PM
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#16
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Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 22,923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29
And at $41,000 per the target market (greenies with a lot money to put where their mouths are) is rather limited.
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At that price, you could buy a Honda Insight hybrid (which looks similar and gets about 40 mpg), for about $20k, then use the additional $21k to buy 7000 gallons of gas at $3.00 per gallon, which would last you roughly 280,000 miles, or almost certainly more than the life of the car. And that doesn't even account for the gas the Volt will use to go more than 40 miles or the cost of the electricity to charge the battery. I don't see many sales at this price.
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Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
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07-27-2010, 08:01 PM
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#17
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Cavalier
Posts: 2,317
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I am curious how well the hybrid and fully electric vehicles handle extreme cold conditions (40 below zero). I have my doubts about how well they would work in those situations.
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"Don't take life so serious, son. It ain't nohow permanent." Pogo Possum (Walt Kelly)
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07-27-2010, 08:09 PM
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#18
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 26,806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigNick
I'm a little skeptical about that number of 8KwH. If 100% efficient, that would nominally let you run the car at 8KW for an hour. 8KW is 11HP. The car looks like a standard mid-range sedan to me, the kind that would have a 1.8-litre 140HP engine in Europe ...
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The 8KW number is consistent. Like you say, 11HP for an hour, and they only claim 40 mile range in EV mode). A car that size, on average only uses about 11HP.
The flaw in your analysis is that a 140 HP conventional ICE car rarely ever produces 140 HP (only for an instant during hard acceleration at the peak of the torque/RPM curve, and then it's time to shift again). The torque/RPM curve of an electric motor means you don't need 140HP for acceleration, all those ponies in an ICE are to compensate for the lack of low end torque. An electric motor has max torque at stall (0 RPM).
For reference, the Tesla Roadster gets about 225 miles on 55KW. At 55mph, that's about 4 hours of driving, or 13.5 KW continuous, or about 18 HP (100% eff for simplicity) in a high end performance sports car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby
I don't see many sales at this price.
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People will buy them to make a statement. I also don't think those are the kind of numbers that work for GM. But it helps them in the 'PR' war - people keep saying, "Why can't GM make a hybrid or an EV, etc, etc." So fine, here you go, want one - $41,000. If you can find a cheaper one, buy it.
-ERD50
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07-27-2010, 08:10 PM
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#19
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathras
However the current grid also couldn't handle the regular demand that will be present in 25 years (which is a guess at how long it would take until the entire light vehicle fleet to switch to EV).
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25 years for the entire light vehicle fleet? That seems kinda "optimistic." I'd bet we've got a much longer time to work out the power grid issues.
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07-27-2010, 11:21 PM
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#20
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby
And that doesn't even account for the gas the Volt will use to go more than 40 miles or the cost of the electricity to charge the battery. I don't see many sales at this price.
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I'm agnostic on the brand & model, but in 4-6 years I'm hoping to buy a three-year-old one from someone who's totally disillusioned with the concept.
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