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Old 07-22-2011, 10:48 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
Anyway, I got curious, and did a very unscientific google news search of "spaghetti sauce" and "delicious" for the recent years:

2011 - 45
2010 - 61
2009 - 110
2008 - 141
2007 - 374

I am not ready to make any conclusions about anything based on google news search results.
Nor would I (geez, I said 'very unscientific'). My point was it's hard to tell. I also wouldn't draw any conclusions from anyone's perception that there are more/less news stories now than earlier.

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Old 07-22-2011, 11:12 AM   #22
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Global warming is not proof of man made global warming.
And it's a step toward clarity to realize that. But I'm hoping to see the day when the debaters take the next step toward clarity and acknowledge that it really doesn't matter whether global warming is man-made. It's not like it will be no problem for us if it's not man-made, and it's not as if it would help us to solve the problem if it is man-made. It's not a moral difficulty; it's a heat difficulty.
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:36 PM   #23
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I disagree in part Greg.
To solve a problem it is helpful to know to cause.
This is not always true, if the solution is a simple one. However, the climate is anything but simple.
I do agree that regardless of GW being partially man made or not, we do need to figure out how to adapt to it.
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:24 PM   #24
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And it's a step toward clarity to realize that. But I'm hoping to see the day when the debaters take the next step toward clarity and acknowledge that it really doesn't matter whether global warming is man-made. It's not like it will be no problem for us if it's not man-made, and it's not as if it would help us to solve the problem if it is man-made. It's not a moral difficulty; it's a heat difficulty.
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I disagree in part Greg.
To solve a problem it is helpful to know to cause.
This is not always true, if the solution is a simple one. However, the climate is anything but simple.
I do agree that regardless of GW being partially man made or not, we do need to figure out how to adapt to it.
+1 on Zathras's comments...

And in addition to trying to know the cause, trying to figure out if anything can be done about it now...

IOW, why spend trillions of dollars (and probably 10s of trillions) to reduce greenhouse gasses IF in the end it doesn't make that much of a difference in the problem... If we did nothing and the problem was X, but if we did a lot the problem would be .95X.... then I would much rather spend the money on us adapting to the problem than trying to 'fix' it with only a 5% difference... because we will have to spend the money to adapt anyhow along with any that might be wasted in tying to fix it...

We all know that we have wasted many billions on ethanol with little results...
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:29 PM   #25
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And it's a step toward clarity to realize that. But I'm hoping to see the day when the debaters take the next step toward clarity and acknowledge that it really doesn't matter whether global warming is man-made. It's not like it will be no problem for us if it's not man-made, and it's not as if it would help us to solve the problem if it is man-made. It's not a moral difficulty; it's a heat difficulty.
The issue is for those that believe in MMGW they think we can fix it since we caused it. Silly, but that's how they think.

The fact is that GW has always occurred and so has Global Cooling. About 600 M years ago the entire planet was frozen (and it is thought to have occurred more than that one time) though it is thought that it may have not been on the equator. That event lasted for hundreds of millions of years (!) and is called Snowball Earth.

Cycles come, cycles go. Greenland was once green and they grew grapes in England. The Earth's climate is not static.
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Old 07-24-2011, 05:44 PM   #26
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The issue is for those that believe in MMGW they think we can fix it since we caused it. Silly, but that's how they think.

The fact is that GW has always occurred and so has Global Cooling. About 600 M years ago the entire planet was frozen (and it is thought to have occurred more than that one time) though it is thought that it may have not been on the equator. That event lasted for hundreds of millions of years (!) and is called Snowball Earth.

Cycles come, cycles go. Greenland was once green and they grew grapes in England. The Earth's climate is not static.
Out of interest, do you seriously imagine that the huge number of scientists involved in this have not considered this line of reasoning and found evidence against it ? Why would the scientific community, which gave us antibiotics and semiconductors and tritherapy and cellphones and jet aircraft and put a man on the moon, suddenly decide to be collectively stupid in a way which only a few pundits on the Internet can spot ?
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:26 PM   #27
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Whether it's real or not, and whether there are human causes to it if it is real, the bottom line is that jobs and the economy trump too much concern about it. When the economy is strong people aren't too worried about the possibility of losing a few jobs with "greener" regulation. Heck, in a strong economy, the displaced workers can probably quickly find other work. When the real unemployment rate is around 17%, nothing that is perceived as "job killing" (whether accurate or not) gets much media play or attention from our elected officials.
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Old 07-24-2011, 06:53 PM   #28
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Out of interest, do you seriously imagine that the huge number of scientists involved in this have not considered this line of reasoning and found evidence against it ?
I don't know what evidence against what line of reasoning you're referring to.
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:22 PM   #29
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Out of interest, do you seriously imagine that the huge number of scientists involved in this have not considered this line of reasoning and found evidence against it ? Why would the scientific community, which gave us antibiotics and semiconductors and tritherapy and cellphones and jet aircraft and put a man on the moon, suddenly decide to be collectively stupid in a way which only a few pundits on the Internet can spot ?
I have read articles, watched on TV and listened to on radio many scientists and every single meteorologist from this state and the evidence is overwhelmingly against MMGW according to all of them. Every single meteorologist in this state (which is very very left wing) has stated on TV and radio that MMGW is just not true. I mention how left wing this state is because this is a left wing issue and I'd have thought at least some of them out of political correctness that is rampant in this state and country would advocate for MMGW, not one has. I have attended forums on MMGW by a prominent meteorologist in this state that completely debunks with facts the myth of MMGW. I have heard other meteorologists on TV and radio do the same. The UN and the left wing politicians in the USA have a vested interest in controlling and taxing us using MMGW as their tool. It is a myth, climates change over time and the sun is the driver. Now if you chose to believe otherwise that is fine, you won't change my opinion based upon the creditable sources I have heard speak out against MMGW.

GW has been occurring for at least 2 centuries but that is part of the cyclical nature of the earth's climate. Humans have not created GW and they can't reverse it either.
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:31 PM   #30
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Every single meteorologist in this state (which is very very left wing) has stated on TV and radio that MMGW is just not true.
This is like shooting fish in a barrel. I urge you to find and use the "edit" button post haste.

Also, meteorologist climatologist
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:46 PM   #31
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This is like shooting fish in a barrel. I urge you to find and use the "edit" button post haste.

Also, meteorologist climatologist


Yes it is! I see no reason to edit anything I have said.

I know meteorologist
≠ climatologist, both are specialists in their respective fields. I mention both because both have discussed this. I'm stating what I believe based upon the facts presented by experts in their respective fields.
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Old 07-24-2011, 08:58 PM   #32
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Every single meteorologist in this state (which is very very left wing) has stated on TV and radio that MMGW is just not true.
So, you live in a state in which every meteorologist has been on TV and radio? And every single one has stated that man-made global warming is not true. There's not a single meteorologist who has not been on TV? There's not a single one who is reserving judgement on this issue?

That must be one wee tiny state.
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:21 PM   #33
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No, it is a very big state, the state of Denial
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:42 PM   #34
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Whether it strengthens or weakens the case for MMGW, two decidedly non-liberal groups planning for GW are the DoD and Georgia Power...

Climate Change Seen as Threat to U.S. Security - NYTimes.com

Improving Air Quality - Georgia Power
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Old 07-24-2011, 09:52 PM   #35
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So, you live in a state in which every meteorologist has been on TV and radio? And every single one has stated that man-made global warming is not true. There's not a single meteorologist who has not been on TV? There's not a single one who is reserving judgement on this issue?

That must be one wee tiny state.
Yes Sam that is what I said isn't it? EVERY one of them has been on TV or radio or both. And every one has said as plainly as I am saying to you that there is NO such thing as MMGW. They attribute changes in the climate to natural processes that ebb and flow that are driven by the sun. I guess this doesn't jive with what you have hear and believe but that's the story.
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Old 07-24-2011, 10:10 PM   #36
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Yes Sam that is what I said isn't it? EVERY one of them has been on TV or radio or both. And every one has said as plainly as I am saying to you that there is NO such thing as MMGW.
That is . . .amazing.
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Old 07-24-2011, 10:18 PM   #37
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And every one has said as plainly as I am saying to you that there is NO such thing as MMGW.
I don't think it should be a political judgment. It is a scientific issue, and in science (as I understand it), you don't vote on the truth. When you can't tell, you look for more evidence or a better theory. Maybe veremchuka's state's experts agree that GW is is not MM and maybe samclem's authorities agree that it is MM. Who cares? We don't want to know who says it's true, but whether it is true. That is, if you think it matters whether GW is MM (and, as I said earlier, I don't think it does).
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Old 07-28-2011, 04:29 PM   #38
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Yes Sam that is what I said isn't it? EVERY one of them has been on TV or radio or both. And every one has said as plainly as I am saying to you that there is NO such thing as MMGW. They attribute changes in the climate to natural processes that ebb and flow that are driven by the sun. I guess this doesn't jive with what you have hear and believe but that's the story.
Can you give us the names and academic affiliations of one (1) of these meteorologists ?

Oh, and do you know the difference between a meteorlogist and a climatologist? It's much the same as the difference between weather and climate. If that's too hard: it's like the difference between the Dow and the economy.
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Old 07-28-2011, 04:40 PM   #39
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:06 AM   #40
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Don't get too comfortable, the show is already over!
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