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Old 07-31-2009, 01:42 PM   #61
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They ran through $1B in four days. Obviously the solution is to make this a $2B program and make it last at least 8 days.
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Old 07-31-2009, 01:59 PM   #62
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Sounds like it is going to be a very busy weekend at the bars, clubs, etc once those car salesmen get their commission checks.
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:03 PM   #63
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Sounds like it is going to be a very busy weekend at the bars, clubs, etc once those car salesmen get their commission checks.
Maybe they'd better save it. They've probably absolutely killed demand for new cars for at least a few months once the program is finally over, since anyone close to buying a new car will have had the decision to "pull the trigger" accelerated to *now*. All that would be left are people not planning to buy a new car for a long time.

They'd be wise to have a big emergency fund when it's over.
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:14 PM   #64
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Maybe they'd better save it. They've probably absolutely killed demand for new cars for at least a few months once the program is finally over, since anyone close to buying a new car will have had the decision to "pull the trigger" accelerated to *now*. All that would be left are people not planning to buy a new car for a long time.

They'd be wise to have a big emergency fund when it's over.
Well, SOME of us would love to buy a new car but aren't driving clunkers so maybe there are a few sales yet to be made.

I took my car to the Toyota dealer to have the broken inside door handle fixed, this morning. They didn't have the part in stock, so I had to order it from their parts department and pay in advance. Then when they get it in, I can arrange for them to install it at the service department. When they told me it was $51 just for the part (installation will be a separate transaction), I almost didn't order it because I was tempted to fuggidaboutit and go buy a new car instead. Almost.
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:23 PM   #65
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Maybe they'd better save it. They've probably absolutely killed demand for new cars for at least a few months once the program is finally over, since anyone close to buying a new car will have had the decision to "pull the trigger" accelerated to *now*. All that would be left are people not planning to buy a new car for a long time.

They'd be wise to have a big emergency fund when it's over.
Well, there's another $2 billion on the way. Maybe after that they can throw another $3 billion at this "problem".
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:25 PM   #66
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I'm thinking the thread title should have been clunkergate instead. More like the scandal that this is.
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Old 07-31-2009, 03:37 PM   #67
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I'm thinking the thread title should have been clunkergate instead. More like the scandal that this is.
I'm curious what the general public's reaction will be.

Clearly, one side is pointing out the obvious flaws. But the other side is spinning this as "success", "look at all the cars that were sold, it spurred the economy, we are environmental angels (though I'd bet the early demise of a running car is worse than the gas saved), etc". So we are going to do MORE of this, it was so wonderful!...

How's that gonna "play in Peoria"? I wonder if any polling data can sort it out.

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Old 07-31-2009, 04:06 PM   #68
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I'm curious what the general public's reaction will be.

Clearly, one side is pointing out the obvious flaws. But the other side is spinning this as "success", "look at all the cars that were sold, it spurred the economy, we are environmental angels (though I'd bet the early demise of a running car is worse than the gas saved), etc". So we are going to do MORE of this, it was so wonderful!...
This will probably be viewed favorably by the majority. It has a green thumbprint on it. It helps out ordinary people buy cars. It stimulates the economy. What's not to like (other than the 1 followed by 9 zeros price tag)?
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Old 07-31-2009, 04:52 PM   #69
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This will probably be viewed favorably by the majority. It has a green thumbprint on it. It helps out ordinary people buy cars. It stimulates the economy. What's not to like (other than the 1 followed by 9 zeros price tag)?
But remember, not all that many cars qualify as clunkers. One that I own that I would consider for the rebate does not qualify. Why? Because I bought the model with the smaller engine to get better fuel economy.

Hypothetically, my neighbor who bought the same vehicle, but opted for the big powerful engine that got worse mileage, and burned up more gas in the past 11 years could qualify. He gets $3500 for being a gas hog, and I get the bill. I wonder if there will be more people mad about that, than there are happy with being able to take advantage of the program.

At least some people are questioning the gas savings versus the early scrapping of a running vehicle. Cradle-to-grave and embedded energy figures get complex, but at least the question is out there. Not everyone sees it as a slam-dunk environmental win.

And, if you are not in the auto industry, you might be angry that *they* are getting a boost, and your industry isn't.

That could add up to a lot of negativism. Oh, that "1" with nine zeroes looks to be a "three" with nine zeroes now

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Old 07-31-2009, 05:42 PM   #70
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But remember, not all that many cars qualify as clunkers. One that I own that I would consider for the rebate does not qualify. Why? Because I bought the model with the smaller engine to get better fuel economy.

Hypothetically, my neighbor who bought the same vehicle, but opted for the big powerful engine that got worse mileage, and burned up more gas in the past 11 years could qualify. He gets $3500 for being a gas hog, and I get the bill. I wonder if there will be more people mad about that, than there are happy with being able to take advantage of the program.

....

That could add up to a lot of negativism. Oh, that "1" with nine zeroes looks to be a "three" with nine zeroes now
I was talking about this in front of the whole company today. Apparently no one had really heard any of the details of this program sufficient to form an opinion of it. Mostly just vague stuff like "you can trade an old car and get a new one and the government gives you money". No one knew any details, so I doubt anyone here would be irritated by this program. And this is a room full of engineers (ie not math challenged).

And what is another $2B among friends? Obama is hooking us up right?
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:35 PM   #71
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I was talking about this in front of the whole company today. Apparently no one had really heard any of the details of this program sufficient to form an opinion of it. Mostly just vague stuff like "you can trade an old car and get a new one and the government gives you money". No one knew any details, so I doubt anyone here would be irritated by this program. And this is a room full of engineers (ie not math challenged).
Hah! My first reactions was - "hey, a bunch of engineers should be all over the details"... But then I realize I'm an old retired phart, sitting around reading the news and digging into the details/background too much of the day.

Sure, when I was working I didn't keep up with this stuff so much, I should not be surprised. But it does get me a bit aggravated that people with little knowledge of what they are voting on get an equal vote, but that is the way it is.

OTOH, the Gallup polls are showing deep declines in Obama's approval ratings, and steep increases in his disapproval ratings, and therfore a shrinking "undecided". So the average Joe/Jane is paying attention to *something*, maybe not the right things, who knows?

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Old 08-01-2009, 05:10 AM   #72
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Also irked me that my '96 Sable did not qualify. I guess I was a bad guy for selecting a car with a combined mpg rating over 18..........
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Old 08-01-2009, 06:16 AM   #73
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I think some sense of proportion is called for here. We loaned AIG, alone $82 billion, $13 billion of which went to Goldman Sachs in the form of CDS payout. Yet we are here blowing a heart valve over $3 billion that's going to ordinary folks to help them buy cars? Yes, the CARS program is not the most efficient program ever devised, but why spend so much energy on $3 billion? I'd be more interested to see if all the companies that received bailout money will ever pay it back.
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Old 08-01-2009, 06:20 AM   #74
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I think some sense of proportion is called for here. We loaned AIG, alone $82 billion, $13 billion of which went to Goldman Sachs in the form of CDS payout. Yet we are here blowing a heart valve over $3 billion that's going to ordinary folks to help them buy cars? Yes, the CARS program is not the most efficient program ever devised, but why spend so much energy on $3 billion? I'd be more interested to see if all the companies that received bailout money will ever pay it back.

Also, this is IMO a good stimulus package... Bush gave everyone a check and most just put it aside... no stimulus...

Congress doled out almost $800 billion on junk projects... very little stimulus... and a LOT of wasted money...

I might not be able to use this program... and I hope I can... but I am not against this one as there are a few points that help...
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Old 08-01-2009, 07:26 AM   #75
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Nice for him - unfortunately I did not. I got a call earlier this evening from a dealer that had a vehicle I was interested in letting me know that the deal is no longer available.
Sorry to hear that, but....

Does that mean that you are no longer interested in getting a new vehicle? It's hard to let go of an impulse like that once it has taken hold, even with the deal having been rescinded.
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Old 08-01-2009, 08:37 AM   #76
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I think some sense of proportion is called for here. We loaned AIG, alone $82 billion, $13 billion of which went to Goldman Sachs in the form of CDS payout. Yet we are here blowing a heart valve over $3 billion that's going to ordinary folks to help them buy cars? Yes, the CARS program is not the most efficient program ever devised, but why spend so much energy on $3 billion? I'd be more interested to see if all the companies that received bailout money will ever pay it back.
Well put.

Recessions, in large part, are weird, irrational, psychological things. Last night the nightly news was talking about how "this program was so successful, it's run out of money!!!" Lots of interviews with dealers singing "Happy days are here again."

Of course we here on the smart person's forum know better, but to many Joe Sixpacks watching TV, the message was "The recession is over, go buy a flat-screen TV."
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:06 AM   #77
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I think some sense of proportion is called for here. We loaned AIG, alone $82 billion, $13 billion of which went to Goldman Sachs in the form of CDS payout.
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Well put.
I disagree - I think that is misplaced.

AIG isn't in the news right now, and it isn't related to this thread. Two wrongs don't make a right. There were plenty of angry threads over AIG at the time, it wasn't ho-hum. Let's not throw good money after bad.


Quote:
Recessions, in large part, are weird, irrational, psychological things. Last night the nightly news was talking about how "this program was so successful, it's run out of money!!!" Lots of interviews with dealers singing "Happy days are here again."

Of course we here on the smart person's forum know better, but to many Joe Sixpacks watching TV, the message was "The recession is over, go buy a flat-screen TV."
It seems ironic to me that the "solution" is "go spend money". Isn't that what got us into this mess? People spent money they didn't have (credit crisis), got too leveraged, didn't know how they will pay for it later, and then the house of cards fell down with a little breeze?

So the answer is, "take this money that the Govt does not have, spend it and we don't know how we will pay for it later"? Sounds like we just moved the house of cards around.

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Also, this is IMO a good stimulus package... Bush gave everyone a check and most just put it aside... no stimulus...

Well, *if* the goal is to get people to spend, than as Texas Proud pointed out, a small check goes to savings, or paying down debt (gee, that sounds like a good thing, no?) in many cases, not spending. But they did discuss giving people debit cards that could not be cashed, only spent. That would be more fair. This stimulus is targeted at such a select group of people (people with old low mpg cars - arghhhhh), and a select industry. How can anyone be in favor of that sort of legislation? I thought this was democracy?

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Old 08-01-2009, 09:08 AM   #78
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Well, at least the $3 billion gives people something to be angry about. Money well spent. Just imagine how dead this forum will be without some bad government programs.
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:19 AM   #79
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Why shouldn't I be angry?

Do you think it's funny that the govt throws around money so ineffectively and just keeps running up the debt? What is that going to mean for our retirements over the next decades? What is it going to mean for future generations? You don't care?

We should break out the champagne because we just rewarded my neighbor for buying a gas hog? What's up with that?

Damn straight I'm mad. I'd be concerned for anyone who isn't.


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FYI: apparently BGF edited post #78 to remove a specific ref to me ( I received what is apparently the original in my email subscription) - so that is why the direct reply in my post. It might look different w/o that context.
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:59 AM   #80
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I agree with Al that recessions are weird irrational things. So why do people think this car thing is such a bad idea? My thought is that it would have been a better idea if the mileage spread had to be greater and if people could buy a used car too.
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