Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
College
Old 03-23-2013, 10:06 AM   #1
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
imoldernu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Peru
Posts: 4,616
College

It would be interesting to know what members think about College, and higher education. So many parts to the subject, that a straight line discussion would be impossible, but since higher education looms so heavily in politics and the economy, perhaps we could look at it in a broader context... for now, and in the future. Some very basic questions:

Is College necessary? For all? For those who can afford it? For those who would be most able to make contributions to society?

College Debt? Paid by the government (Public Funded)? By the education recipient? Based on subsequent income? (tough question). Banks indemnified for losses?

Alternate equivalents? Business funded, as a development cost... ie R&D or trade specific as in apprenticeships.

If losses on the Trillion dollar debt is eventually absorbed by the public, should individual federal taxes be adjusted to equalize the loss?

In the age of specialization, do colleges as they exist, serve the best interests of the country?

Since many of us have paid for college education for our children, (or are still paying)... How do you feel about the overall subject.... for now, and perhaps the next 20 years?
__________________

__________________
Today is the oldest you've ever been, and the youngest you'll ever be again. - Eleanor Roosevelt
imoldernu is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-23-2013, 10:25 AM   #2
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,629
Complex topic. Some random thoughts-

Personal responsibility needs to be part of it. One choosing to go to high-priced college needs to eventually pay for at least most of their education. VERY few students now seem to live as frugally as most did when I was in school.

Colleges (e.g. recruiting literature) need to be honest with students re overall costs & eventual job (or grad school) prospects. Example- allegation that some law schools are less than upfront with prospective students about these issues-
College

Obviously education is important, but society should stop claiming college is the ONLY way to a successful life!!! Many skilled trades are understaffed & offer better job prospects than some college degrees. And many hugely successful folks were drop outs (or never even attended college), inc Henry Ford, Walt Disney, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, etc.
Famous Dropouts
__________________

__________________
ERhoosier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 10:30 AM   #3
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
mpeirce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Columbus area
Posts: 1,590
Wow, so broad a subject...

I'll just focus on the paying for it part.

One of my goals in life was to make sure my kids could go to college if they wanted to. We've been able to follow through on that. (My grandfather made sure all of his grandkids could go to college and we are all grateful for that)

Step daughter worked hard in HS and was accepted to a good out of state school. But chose to get a degree in physiology. Which she realized afterwards was pretty worthless to her.

After working for a year after college she figure out a more practical interest. She went to grad school and came out with a degree in speech pathology and now has an excellent career in that field.

The not so surprising thing to me was that when she went to grad school, she used a combination of savings (from the year of working), a graduate assistantship and loans to pay for it. And surprise! she worked much harder and was much more focused when she was paying her own way.

After she graduated, we paid off her loans - we had that intention from the start, but didn't clue her in until later.

My son is an undergrad now. We're paying for the undergrad part and, since he's not stupid, he knows we paid for his sister's graduate school and he knows we'll help him there too. So I guess that "trick" only works once. We'll see how that works out. So far so good.
__________________
mpeirce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 10:40 AM   #4
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Katsmeow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,399
I feel strongly about this subject and feel that the US system is wrong in many ways. While I don't agree with Charles Murray on everything and he is on the other side of the political divide I do agree with him on a lot about education and found this book compelling:

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Education...rray+education

To answer your question we first have to define what you mean by college. Most people when they start advocating college for everyone are talking about 4 year academic college. That is, obtaining at least a bachelor's degree.

No - not everyone should obtain a bachelor's degree. And, college itself needs to be different.

To be blunt, not everyone is able to obtain a bachelor's degree. Not everyone has the intellectual ability or the interest. And, many students who do obtain a degree become mediocre college students when they might be great at something else.

I very strongly believe that we encourage way too many people to obtain a bachelor's degree. We end up sending people to academic universities who don't really have the intellectual ability to do well and don't really have the interest.

I think it is good to encourage those who truly want a bachelor's degree to pursue that goal. However, our schools now go beyond that. They really are into to pushing every student to go to 4 year academic college and it is harmful to those students who either aren't above average students (i.e. it is harmful to most students since most students aren't above average) and to those students who are just interested in other things.

I have 3 kids of very different interests and abilities. I have one son who graduated high school at 15 and is very interested in doing the things that colleges teach one to do. Obtaining a 4 year degree is a good choice for him. On the other hand, for my daughter who is currently in late high school, before we started homeschooling her, the public schools did her great harm. She is an average student and is not interested at all in the more traditional academic fields. She has no interest in doing the things that you learn in obtaining a B.A. Public school basically teaches that you have to go to 4 year college to succeed and the only reason someone wouldn't do so is because they are stupid. That is the message she internalized. It made it hard for her for a long time because she felt that she had to go to college because otherwise she was admitting she was stupid.

So - no - not every needs a bachelor's degree. The world would be a sad place, frankly, if we had no carpenters, no hairdressers, no cooks, no plumbers, no sales clerks in stores, no automobile repairers, etc.

I do believe in post- high school education, but I think for most people it should be focused on a career path not earning a bachelor's degree. I love what most of the community colleges are doing. There are many great 1 and 2 year programs that teach people a specific career and don't require learning history or math or psychology, etc. unless relevant to the specific career.

In fact, I think this should be expanded to other fields as well. That is, for most fields that require a B.A. I would suggest changing the field of study to focus on the more career related coursework rather than spending 3/4 of your college experience studying things that don't relate to your field of interest.

If we did this then higher education would be much more affordable and we would have a much better prepared work force.

And, yes, colleges are way too expensive. The classic liberal arts education is nice for some people but the negatives outweigh the positives for most people and the cost is too high.
__________________
Katsmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 11:15 AM   #5
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,360
I think one problem is that more and more employers are using college as a screening gate for jobs that don't require it.

Another problem is that there is so much downward pressure on wages for most non-college track jobs that it is becoming less and less likely to be able to raise a family on non-college track wages. Some of the trades are still ok during good times, but anytime a recession hits they have to deal with long bouts of unemployment. Many of the jobs you listed (hairdresser, cook, sales clerk, automobile repairers) are no longer middle class jobs.

The economy is really turning into a winner take all world. If you're in the top 10-20%, you'll do great. Otherwise, its $10/hr without benefits for you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsmeow View Post
So - no - not every needs a bachelor's degree. The world would be a sad place, frankly, if we had no carpenters, no hairdressers, no cooks, no plumbers, no sales clerks in stores, no automobile repairers, etc.

I do believe in post- high school education, but I think for most people it should be focused on a career path not earning a bachelor's degree. I love what most of the community colleges are doing. There are many great 1 and 2 year programs that teach people a specific career and don't require learning history or math or psychology, etc. unless relevant to the specific career.
__________________
Hamlet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 11:37 AM   #6
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Brett_Cameron's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: South Eastern USA
Posts: 1,010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsmeow View Post
I feel strongly about this subject and feel that the US system is wrong in many ways. While I don't agree with Charles Murray on everything and he is on the other side of the political divide I do agree with him on a lot about education and found this book compelling:

Amazon.com: Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality eBook: Charles Murray: Kindle Store

To answer your question we first have to define what you mean by college. Most people when they start advocating college for everyone are talking about 4 year academic college. That is, obtaining at least a bachelor's degree.

No - not everyone should obtain a bachelor's degree. And, college itself needs to be different.

To be blunt, not everyone is able to obtain a bachelor's degree. Not everyone has the intellectual ability or the interest. And, many students who do obtain a degree become mediocre college students when they might be great at something else.

I very strongly believe that we encourage way too many people to obtain a bachelor's degree. We end up sending people to academic universities who don't really have the intellectual ability to do well and don't really have the interest.

I think it is good to encourage those who truly want a bachelor's degree to pursue that goal. However, our schools now go beyond that. They really are into to pushing every student to go to 4 year academic college and it is harmful to those students who either aren't above average students (i.e. it is harmful to most students since most students aren't above average) and to those students who are just interested in other things.

I have 3 kids of very different interests and abilities. I have one son who graduated high school at 15 and is very interested in doing the things that colleges teach one to do. Obtaining a 4 year degree is a good choice for him. On the other hand, for my daughter who is currently in late high school, before we started homeschooling her, the public schools did her great harm. She is an average student and is not interested at all in the more traditional academic fields. She has no interest in doing the things that you learn in obtaining a B.A. Public school basically teaches that you have to go to 4 year college to succeed and the only reason someone wouldn't do so is because they are stupid. That is the message she internalized. It made it hard for her for a long time because she felt that she had to go to college because otherwise she was admitting she was stupid.

So - no - not every needs a bachelor's degree. The world would be a sad place, frankly, if we had no carpenters, no hairdressers, no cooks, no plumbers, no sales clerks in stores, no automobile repairers, etc.

I do believe in post- high school education, but I think for most people it should be focused on a career path not earning a bachelor's degree. I love what most of the community colleges are doing. There are many great 1 and 2 year programs that teach people a specific career and don't require learning history or math or psychology, etc. unless relevant to the specific career.

In fact, I think this should be expanded to other fields as well. That is, for most fields that require a B.A. I would suggest changing the field of study to focus on the more career related coursework rather than spending 3/4 of your college experience studying things that don't relate to your field of interest.

If we did this then higher education would be much more affordable and we would have a much better prepared work force.

And, yes, colleges are way too expensive. The classic liberal arts education is nice for some people but the negatives outweigh the positives for most people and the cost is too high.
I agree and you have stated my thoughts quite clearly.
__________________
Brett_Cameron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 01:36 PM   #7
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
College, as currently implemented, is not very effective as an educational institution. It's great sequestering 18-22 year olds and having them live together. They learn a lot from that (usually). College classes are hit and miss. A few are inspiring and wonderful. The vast majority are a waste of time and the students know this and work accordingly.

College costs are insanely high and with vast sums of aid and loans available, plus the cultural bias for middle class and above kids to get a college education, there is little in the way of checks and balances to counter this. When you consider the ineffectiveness of the education received, it's amazing the system has persisted as long as it has.

We are just starting a new technology of massive multi-student online classes. Some are well taught, some not so well. But the delivery cost is almost nothing. With a little time, these could sort themselves out into a very effective vector for actual learning at very low cost, making the idea that college is the only worthwhile post-secondary education history. And then it will likely be on to secondary education, which is pretty pathetic as currently practiced in most places.

Until then, I wholeheartedly support getting the best college education that you can for young people and will happily pay (full fare, probably unfortunately) for my kids to get the best college experience they can at the best college they can get into. But I expect them to be among the last wave of students for whom this is a common educational experience and am hopeful that much better educational models and more effective delivery systems are coming soon. Heck, maybe it makes a good ER hobby if it doesn't develop fast enough on it's own.
__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 07:31 PM   #8
Moderator
Walt34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 16,544
I have mixed thoughts on it. Personal responsibility and accountability are big issues with me that the concept of "follow your passion and the money will follow" fails to address as evidenced by the large number of unemployed graduates. As others have noted I think HS and college counselors too frequently don't address the ugly reality of earning a living. And too often employers require degrees for jobs that don't need them and for that reason many have to have them just to get past the screening process. What a waste.

But the days of being able to earn a comfortable middle class lifestyle with nothing more than a HS diploma and a willingness to work are just about over too. The skilled trades have standards too. The guy that bought FIL's house a month ago was a young Master Electrician. While I don't know exactly what level of study it takes to get that certification I'd guess it's on a par with at least a two-year degree. I am sure that dummies need not apply.
__________________
I heard the call to do nothing. So I answered it.
Walt34 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 08:37 PM   #9
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 333
It's a much more complicated question to really answer thoroughly but I think for professional positions in most major corporations, it's the main way to get your foot in the door.
__________________
HighRoller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 09:33 PM   #10
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Katsmeow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
I think one problem is that more and more employers are using college as a screening gate for jobs that don't require it.

....

The economy is really turning into a winner take all world. If you're in the top 10-20%, you'll do great. Otherwise, its $10/hr without benefits for you.
I do agree it is a problem of employers requiring a 4 year degree for jobs that don't require it. On the other hand I think it is not accurate to say that you either get a 4 year degree or make $10/hr without benefits.

My daughter does not want to do 4 year college. She is an average student and it would be a struggle for her to get a 4 year degree unless she was highly motivated to do so ....which she isn't. So we have been doing a career planning course (we homeschool). We've been looking at the certificate and AAS degrees at the community college. There are a lot of them. They are focused on skills in a particular field. We then looked up what each field she was interested in could earn (we looked at the records in our area) and I would say that overall the pay was decent with some experience and was well above $10/hr. Of course, these were all fields where she would be going to school for a year and a half to two years.
__________________
Katsmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2013, 10:33 PM   #11
Full time employment: Posting here.
martyp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 963
Here is an article that says that about 25% of high school grads are prepared for college level work but 70% are enrolled in college. This state of affairs makes no sense.

Public High Schools Are Not Doing Their Jobs - Economic Intelligence (usnews.com)
__________________
Happy, Wild, and Free
martyp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 06:40 AM   #12
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
clifp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,450
I have not read Murray's book but it is on my list, since I loved the Bell Curve.

I don't have much to add to Katsmeow excellent posts. In my family my parents never graduated from college (my mom went briefly) but all three of their kids did. My oldest sister benefited somewhat, but she only worked a few years as dietitian, despite a master. She always wanted to be mom and was a very good, and a great grandmother.

My middle sister had no aptitude for math, and while very bright and excellent at writing. She is an amazing at anything artistic. She had very little interest in getting a degree at 18, partying and boys being a much higher priority for her. College was a complete waste for her. 30 years latter her interest in conservation and marine biology lead her to pursue a degree, but math requirement proved too much.

On the other I hand I blossomed in college and remember it fondly. I picked up valuable skills, which translated in a well paying and fulfilling career. I terrific investment for all parties, myself, the state of California, and society at large.
For the most part you could have predicted the college experience for everybody in my family by looking at high school grades and test scores.

It seems to the only institution right now that is able to systemically able transform average 18 year old kids into 21 year old productive adults is the US military. Unfortunately many of the skills the military teaches aren't particularly valuable in peace times.

It seem to me we really need to adopt/steal the German apprentice program, and stop pretending that sending C+ High School students for four more years of reading, writing, and arithmetic, is valuable.
__________________
clifp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 07:58 AM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,277
I only want to make a comment about funding....

I think a lot of the problems with the high cost of education would be fixed as long as the colleges and lenders had a chance to lose money...

Today they have every incentive to lend as much money as they can to students... and students do not really price shop (at least the evidence seems to point that way)..

So, if some fresh out of high school grad thinks that going to a 'top' college that cost $45K in tuition and fees and more when you include living expenses to get a degree in underwater basket weaving.... well, there should be something in place that might tell that young lass/lad that it might not be such a wise move... if the lender knew that they could lose money if the college grad does not get a good job and could not pay back the loan without a big hardship.... well, they just might not make that loan... and if the university started to have a lot of students not showing up because their costs are out of line... then they might start to look for ways to cut costs...


Right now, all of the burden falls on the student.... if it started to fall on others (lenders being first), they would make a more rational decision in their lending practices...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 10:00 AM   #14
Full time employment: Posting here.
Tyro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Upstate
Posts: 699
I find it curious that so far, no-one here has explicity viewed college as what (I see) it is -- an investment. Some investments do well, and others do not. Some investments are well-suited for some people, and some are not.

College is quite different from high school, trade school, the military, Peace Corps, and anything else, and individuals and individual experiences are unique, so unless/until one has been, I don't know how anyone could know for certain if the experience is right for them without at least trying (and that could be said for the other routes above as well).

IMO, to define, limit or cubby-hole college to just "education" (i.e. formal education) dismisses a great deal of the experience. I do believe there is something to gain for everyone (a return on the investment) regardless of the outcome.

I also think that what you get out of it depends a lot on what you put into it, but I came from a different place than most of my class -- I footed my own bill, so I was more determined (I think) to get everything I could from every class and experience I partook in.

"There's a time and place for everything, and it's called college." ~Unknown

The Denizens of Goggle seem to think the origin of this quote is South Park, and that it is drug-related. It is neither; I heard it many years before South Park ever was, and it applies to many many experiences: cultural, political, intellectual, musical, religious, sexual, emotional... everything -- a period of self-discovery. Self-discovery can occur in many places & ways -- college is just one -- but it is one that affords a much broader exposure than many others.

It's an investment in onesself and in life. I would hope that every young person could experience it, and then if they find it's not right for them, follow their dreams...

Even that list of famous dropouts gave it a shot...

Tyro
__________________
Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man. ~ The Dude
Tyro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 10:05 AM   #15
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
I doubt the idea of letting colleges bear some cost for students who do not earn enough with their degree will help much. Necessarily it would have to be limited to students who actually get a degree, and there are plenty of stories of folks with piles of student debt who didn't finish. Also, that immediately puts in place a perverse incentive for colleges to make finishing much more difficult. While that might not be a bad thing educationally, it would certainly be a bad thing for graduation rates and an awful lot of 18-22 year olds are slinking by, not rising to the challenge. Which is a big part of contributing to the problem in the first place.

We currently have a system where the cost (or at least a significant part of it) is slightly visible to the consumer (student) through loans and tuition and that does not seem to have sparked much rational buying behavior. There is a little bit, but not a lot. I think a big part of this is because 18-22 year olds are barely adult. This will be among their first big adult decisions for many of them (possibly predating their first big adult decisions for many of them) and they lack the experience and context to make such a decision wisely. I know I certainly did.

Trying to think of ways to improve this system and the unfortunate confluence of young adulthood, beginning independence, educational needs, institutional issues with education, finances, loans, and disparities in wealth and ability is hugely complex. I think it is much more likely that a new element (my money is on massively parallel distributed education) comes along to disrupt the whole thing than we suddenly realize a few missing links and fix the current system, which has a lot more flaws than just high student debt loads.
__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 10:20 AM   #16
Full time employment: Posting here.
martyp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyro View Post
I find it curious that so far, no-one here has explicity viewed college as what (I see) it is -- an investment. Some investments do well, and others do not. Some investments are well-suited for some people, and some are not.

IMO, to define, limit or cubby-hole college to just "education" (i.e. formal education) dismisses a great deal of the experience. I do believe there is something to gain for everyone (a return on the investment) regardless of the outcome.
Tyro
Normally, I would agree with this. I was an employee of the Univ. of California and for the past 4-5 years I've watched incredible increases in college costs. It's made me question the value of college for an increasing segment of the current college population. Some traditional career paths like engineering, business, medicine, law, etc. are still worthwhile investments. But a lot of students are pursuing foolish amounts of money on educations that will never pay back in money or personal growth.

It is also a tragedy that the societal pressures are pushing unprepared students into first and second year expenses only to drop out without graduating. With a little thought and preparation the "investment value" can be evaluated before incurring the expenses. In other words, it is not really an investment without estimating what the future returns will be. The money ROI should be like any other money investment. The personal growth factor is, admittedly, a lot mushier. If you've got the money then go for it . . . but these days and that these costs I'm not so sure personal growth aspect is worth it.
__________________
Happy, Wild, and Free
martyp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 10:22 AM   #17
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
Quote:
Self-discovery can occur in many places & ways -- college is just one -- but it is one that affords a much broader exposure than many others.
This seems to be a very important idea. In my college experience, at a very well regarded school, I learned some formal education but much less than I would have expected. Almost all of which I have NEVER used in any professional capacity. I learned some things on my own and some at side jobs I took for spending money. Almost all of which I did use professionally and still do. Some of which I haven't been able to do in my job and are on my bucket list to tackle when I ER, because here an adult lifetime later they are still important to me. And quite a lot I learned having nothing to do with education or any classes, but simply with living on my own in an ocean of other young people doing the same. We could have got that experience and "learning" in any setting that collected us together for four years.

It's hard to tease out which of these is the "college experience" but in my case, and in many of the friends I had at the time, it's all the experiences other than the formal education which mattered the most. Even at a very good school, the actual teaching and education is very uneven and often surprisingly ineffective. For something that as a species we have probably been trying to do for thousands of years, we are still surprisingly bad at it.
__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 10:36 AM   #18
Full time employment: Posting here.
martyp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 963
I studied physics and mechanical engineering. I got a lot out of my formal education, most of which I used throughout my career. I met friends that are still my best friends today. What I used to tell people about the value of college was that it was a great place to learn how to learn. However, college is not for everyone and you can learn and be successful in other ways too.
__________________
Happy, Wild, and Free
martyp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 10:47 AM   #19
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,988
Re: college tuition

I've heard talk about offering lower college tuition rates for degrees for in-demand professions (such as STEM = science, technology, engineering, mathematics). This might help some young people choose a (previously not-considered) degree program that can put them on track for a decent-paying career as well as help employers find 'locally-grown talent'.

I don't know if any schools/states have put such a tiered tuition system in place.

omni
__________________
omni550 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2013, 12:04 PM   #20
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
There was talk about putting such a system in place here, but the plan was to charge MORE for STEM degrees, since those had higher earning potential and were in greater demand. College costs to find qualified instructors were higher and they wanted to pass the costs on to students.
__________________

__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:12 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.