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Old 11-27-2011, 11:04 AM   #41
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There are always j*bs available. The question is how much time is one willing spend for what amount of $ or in kind return, and what the nature of the poop scooping is.

Some think mucking out stalls is beneath their BS or MS in basketweaving, and go off to oocupy wall street, others find it helpful in putting food on the table. Until something more likeable or at least tolerable comes along with more $$.

I went to w*rk for the railroad as grease monkey with a BS, right alongside with guys with BSEE's and MSs and one MBA and another w/BS in chemistry. The job market sucked. 3 years later as a management type I was still interviewing guys with BSEE for grease monkey jobs. 40 job openings, for light Rail startup, 900 + applicants. That is not a misprint really 900 + applied.

Yeah, the job market still sucked. 6 years later we could not get anyone with HS diploma to walk in the the door for $14/hr and knowing nothing, in spite of the gold plated health benefits.

By now I'sure they are back to cherry picking EEs and MBAs for grease monkey jobs.

I just can't work up any sympathy for the unemployed.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:17 AM   #42
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There are always j*bs available. The question is how much time is one willing spend for what amount of $ or in kind return, and what the nature of the poop scooping is.

Some think mucking out stalls is beneath their BS or MS in basketweaving, and go off to oocupy wall street, others find it helpful in putting food on the table. Until something more likeable or at least tolerable comes along with more $$.

I went to w*rk for the railroad as grease monkey with a BS, right alongside with guys with BSEE's and MSs and one MBA and another w/BS in chemistry. The job market sucked. 3 years later as a management type I was still interviewing guys with BSEE for grease monkey jobs. 40 job openings, for light Rail startup, 900 + applicants. That is not a misprint really 900 + applied.

Yeah, the job market still sucked. 6 years later we could not get anyone with HS diploma to walk in the the door for $14/hr and knowing nothing, in spite of the gold plated health benefits.

By now I'sure they are back to cherry picking EEs and MBAs for grease monkey jobs.

I just can't work up any sympathy for the unemployed.



Actually, my summer j*bs as a vacuum cleaner/small engine/automotive "grease monkey" for Sears and then post bachelor's j*b as a small engine mechanic for Wards, helped me out later on. I knew how mechanical and simple electrical components fit together, was used to reading parts diagrams, and locating the failure points in a system. I learned how to diagnose, prepare estimates of repair, and do the w*rk.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:19 AM   #43
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When we look at this by individual we see training, attitude and personal initiative as the solution. In aggregate, however, the problem is the shortage of jobs, not a poor work ethic.
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About half that number are children, seniors or others that do not work. The labor force has 5.2% of undocumented workers. Many of these are jobs that employers (unlawfully) pay no payroll taxes, including nannies and lawn care. Cracking down on businesses (and individuals) that employ without complying with labor laws would be helpful for employment and also Social Security and Medicare funding. What jobs people are willing to take is not clear, but the measure should not be vs. unlawful exploitation.
I think the point here is that some unemployed choose to go out and find their own jobs, even if the Bureau of Labor insists that they don't exist. Others wait for their calls to be returned, and a few go home (or go occupy somewhere else). Some job seekers thrive on adversity, others quit at the first sign of it. Which would you hire?

Any suggestions on how to help the last two groups? It doesn't seem to be very effective to hunt them down and stuff a roll of taxpayer cash in their faces.

Alabama is finding out what happens when them durn illegal immigrants (and their legal friends) are driven outta town:
Why Americans Won't Do Dirty Jobs - Businessweek

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Sometimes I think this board should be called, "The Glass House ER Forum". When you were in college, in the good old days, everyone studied hard and joined "worthwhile" groups like student government and never skipped class or did anything crazy? That tells me that you missed the 60s. It also tells me that no one here graduated during the 70s oil crisis, or the 80s crisis, or the 90s recession, or the 00 dot bomb. Or, perhaps, everyone here is an economic automaton, always making the correct decisions since they were 3 years old.
Empathy isn't a four letter word.
I pulled plenty of crazy/stupid tricks in college, but I went to one that had a guaranteed government-employment program after graduation... they even let me shoot guns and blow up stuff.

I suspect that the people who post to this forum are quite accustomed to confronting adversity, and indeed have little patience for those who are intimidated by it. No glass houses here...
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:40 AM   #44
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Okay, so you're a fifty-something white collar w*rker bee, and you find yourself rightsized. Now, I've seen plenty of fifty-somethings waiting tables or running a register at Wallyworld, but, frankly, many employers won't hire a college grad, white collar whatever, because they know that as soon as something else comes along, away goes the new hiree.

And many manual labor jobs are hard work, the kind that kicks the assets of a fifty-something former desk jockey.

Plus, while you're scooping poop ten hours a day, you aren't able to look for a "real" job. So, not much sympathy for someone who won't work, but it's a bit more complicated that "get a job, you lazy bum"...

Having said that, a stint in one of those kinds of jobs will definitely "inspire" you to find an alternative!
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:46 AM   #45
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Alabama is finding out what happens when them durn illegal immigrants (and their legal friends) are driven outta town:
Why Americans Won't Do Dirty Jobs - Businessweek
Alabama farmers are finding out what happens when they pay an illegal laborer only $60 (no employment taxes needed!) for 10-12 hours of work and then try to do the same to a legal employee.

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I suspect that the people who post to this forum are quite accustomed to confronting adversity, and indeed have little patience for those who are intimidated by it. No glass houses here...
Or people are just very nostalgic (=forgetful).

Even if we are all way above average, most people aren't. We can whine about their whining and how they're lazy do-nothings...or we create jobs for them.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:25 PM   #46
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\Or people are just very nostalgic (=forgetful).
Yeah, I try to forget all those years when I (and most of my friends) had to moonlight at menial jobs in order to make a living wage. But when the whiners whine about that while not even considering the possibility of moonlighting at McDonald's, mowing lawns, doing housecleaning, or similar demeaning jobs, I am unfortunately reminded of that. Luckily not all young people are whiners (just a few, IMO) and there are many, many very admirable folks working hard at whatever jobs they can find in order to try to survive this tough economy.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:47 PM   #47
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I think the point here is that some unemployed choose to go out and find their own jobs, even if the Bureau of Labor insists that they don't exist. Others wait for their calls to be returned, and a few go home (or go occupy somewhere else). Some job seekers thrive on adversity, others quit at the first sign of it. Which would you hire?
This is an oversimplification. I acknowledge your point and that made by others. People looking for employment or job improvement need to work hard just to do that, and when they can’t find what they want, they need to work harder. I do take issue with calling unemployed people whiners and blaming them for being unemployed. All this does is allow people to blame the victim and then turn away without regard or remedy. There are 15 million under/unemployed and 3 million jobs open. This is a crisis, not an opportunity to criticize the unemployed. Are there unemployed whiners? Yes. But there are many more that are doing the right things, not getting results and frightened that the outcome may be permanently bad.
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Any suggestions on how to help the last two groups? It doesn't seem to be very effective to hunt them down and stuff a roll of taxpayer cash in their faces.
Endless transfers to unemployed people limit suffering but don’t solve problems. The same holds true for deficit spending.

As for suggestions, this problem has been building for decades and will be quite difficult to fix. Aggregate demand in the US is inadequate so substantially higher levels of employment mean either producing for export or greater fiscal spending. Certainly there is an absolute absence of any kind of intelligent federal policy on this. In the spirit of non-partisanship, the absence of policy has characterized our gov’t for decades. I think we desperately need an industrial policy to focus on sustainable job creation that pay living wages, an energy policy that brings to 0 our net energy trade balance, and an effective and realistic immigration policy.

Colleges and Universities must get more involved - they have no skin in this game. Require them to hold half the total debt any student incurs and make that debt eligible for bankruptcy. Also make them liable for half of gov’t aid if their graduates fall into financial trouble. That will get them to sit up and take notice.

Set up a two track high secondary school system. One for college bound students and the other for direct to work or technical school students.

New housing construction is a critical component of employment and economic growth. To stabilize it and allow it grow at a more naturally sustainable level it needs to be freed of stimulus and gov’t incentive. The busts are so harsh because the boom was overstimulated.

For more immediate impact, we absolutely need a more aggressive approach dealing with employers who violate labor laws. The punishment has to be more effective in discouraging this behavior. Finally, an infrastructure bank with $500B initial funding would serve two purposes – generate between 2-3M jobs directly and another half more indirect jobs, and improve our physical infrastructure, which has been and will continue to be key to our global competitiveness.

Just some random thoughts as I recover from food hangover.
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Old 11-27-2011, 12:54 PM   #48
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Sometimes I think this board should be called, "The Glass House ER Forum". When you were in college, in the good old days, everyone studied hard and joined "worthwhile" groups like student government and never skipped class or did anything crazy? That tells me that you missed the 60s. It also tells me that no one here graduated during the 70s oil crisis, or the 80s crisis, or the 90s recession, or the 00 dot bomb. Or, perhaps, everyone here is an economic automaton, always making the correct decisions since they were 3 years old.

Empathy isn't a four letter word.
I see a lot more 'attitude' in your post than the the ones you're seemingly addressing.

Nords said it well enough, I won't go on.


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Old 11-27-2011, 01:35 PM   #49
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There are people who need jobs and jobs who need people.
1. Move to where the jobs are available
2. Change your skillset / expectations to match available jobs in your area

I realize moving may not be easy if you have a mortgage and can't sell the house. I realize leaving family behind to start over in a new place is difficult. I realize changing skillset to match existing jobs makes one start at the bottom of that "career" ladder. I realize changing expectations of income is difficult if the outgo (bills) is significant.

The high schools in our rural counties already offer an academic and a technical track. Young people in our local high school can graduate with a certification in welding, a certified nursing assistance, or a pharmacy tech (all in demand). More training is being added each year. The local junior college is offering an associates in Petrolium Technology and walk into waiting jobs. What makes these schools different is the training centers work closely with major corporations to identify and train for blue collar jobs that are or will be in demand. They do a good job of matching skillset to opportunity.

There seems to be a lot of "who's causing what" this past year. Remember the sociology / psychology courses in college - where you were asked to consider if nurture (family) or nature (environment) influenced the person we were to become? I believe it's our choices that define us. That's why some people can achieve great things with so little.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:47 PM   #50
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There are always j*bs available. The question is how much time is one willing spend for what amount of $ or in kind return, and what the nature of the poop scooping is.

Some think mucking out stalls is beneath their BS or MS in basketweaving, and go off to oocupy wall street, others find it helpful in putting food on the table. Until something more likeable or at least tolerable comes along with more $$.

I went to w*rk for the railroad as grease monkey with a BS, right alongside with guys with BSEE's and MSs and one MBA and another w/BS in chemistry. The job market sucked. 3 years later as a management type I was still interviewing guys with BSEE for grease monkey jobs. 40 job openings, for light Rail startup, 900 + applicants. That is not a misprint really 900 + applied.

Yeah, the job market still sucked. 6 years later we could not get anyone with HS diploma to walk in the the door for $14/hr and knowing nothing, in spite of the gold plated health benefits.

By now I'sure they are back to cherry picking EEs and MBAs for grease monkey jobs.

I just can't work up any sympathy for the unemployed.
I agree with you for the most part. One thing that I think may set them apart from us is that they may have racked up a huge amount of debt to get to the degree.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:49 PM   #51
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I see a lot more 'attitude' in your post than the the ones you're seemingly addressing.
Truth hurts?

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Nords said it well enough, I won't go on.
Ok, then don't.
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Old 11-27-2011, 01:58 PM   #52
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There are people who need jobs and jobs who need people.
1. Move to where the jobs are available
2. Change your skillset / expectations to match available jobs in your area
Are you suggesting that there ARE plenty of jobs available for those who are unemployed?

The unemployment rate is 9.1%. The underemployment rate and long-term rates are higher. Do you have any numbers to this theory that there are plenty of jobs? In other words, please provide evidence of ~15M vacant jobs that no one is taking. Thanks.
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Old 11-27-2011, 02:05 PM   #53
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I agree with you for the most part. One thing that I think may set them apart from us is that they may have racked up a huge amount of debt to get to the degree.
If they choose to go to a high cost univ, where courses are taught by slave labor TA's, while the profs are sitting on their laurels supposedly doing research to battle the publish or perish climate, their problem and no one else's.

No sympathy there either. I did college well past 30, while working full time. By the way, I was full fare Freddie, paid full tuition with cash at the beginning of each semester. 5yrs for a BS in Business.

Having said all of the above, I am happy to note that there are many college kids I observed in recent years sitting in the cafe and studying their a$$es off. And getting in some happy grab-a$$ as well.
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Old 11-27-2011, 02:20 PM   #54
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My S & DIL's nanny has a master's degree in social work. Her husband is in grad school, she couldn't find a better paying job (although my kids do pay her well). This gal is no slouch, my preschool aged grandchildren couldn't be better cared for.. it is almost as if they have a private tutor.
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Old 11-27-2011, 03:18 PM   #55
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CNN had a Nobel Lauriet Economist on today, and he indicated that most of the jobs created in the US the past several years have either been healthcare related or government. Not much opportunity for those that went to college looking for a white collar career and now find they need to shovel horse manure or oh go and retrain themselves as a welder or truck driver.

The fix we are in today stems from years of outsourcing both manufacturing and white collar work and too many entitlements that we couldn't afford, so now the roosters have finally come home to roost and those that benefited during all those good years seem to be gloating (yet many of them don't want to give up anything either to right the ship). I hope we can fix this mess of an economy as I for one do not want to see our country and young people facing a future where the only choices are to do menial labor to survive.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:08 PM   #56
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Business is saddled with too much uncertainty- taxes, us debt, Europe debt, regulation, healthcare costs. And revenues are generally down from their highs. So why would business hire anyone other than a stellar candidate? They simply dont need more people because there's no demand to increase production. Besides, companies have figured out that they can be profitable with fewer employees. So it's going to be tough for college grads to find the kind of jobs they expect.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:40 PM   #57
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Are you suggesting that there ARE plenty of jobs available for those who are unemployed?
Yes, there are jobs for the unemployed - not the unemployable - albeit probably not in their current locale or in their skillset.

I'm curious if programs such as the CCC and the WPA were implemented today would anyone would apply?
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Old 11-27-2011, 05:23 PM   #58
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Yes, there are jobs for the unemployed - not the unemployable - albeit probably not in their current locale or in their skillset.
15 million jobs? Add in the part-time underemployed count of about 8 million and we need about 23 million jobs. Where are these 23 million jobs that are out there for the taking?
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Old 11-27-2011, 08:16 PM   #59
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15 million jobs? Add in the part-time underemployed count of about 8 million and we need about 23 million jobs. Where are these 23 million jobs that are out there for the taking?
What's your solution?
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:28 PM   #60
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All said, I'd still rather have a college degree than not, but then, my education was inexpensive to me - two years community college for an associate, then night school paid for by megaconglomoteet. And in a decent economy, even that BA in film studies might be worth something...

Well, maybe not...

It really is different this time. Well, maybe not that either. We need to be honest with our spawn, and admit they're screwed be realistic about the prospects of employment as it relates to college choice, major, and student loans.

Stereotypes notwithstanding, there are plenty of bright, well-educated young folks out there.
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