College Education Revisited

[mh]

+1

The factories I toiled in for 30+ years don't even exist today. Every one has been shuttered or converted to another use.

There are very few corporate-based apprenticeships or trade-related training programs left in the USA. The mini-resurgence in manufacturing we're currently having is being hindered by a severe lack of skilled tradespeople (machinists, tool and die makers, millwrights, electricians, etc.). Maybe trade school in one of these areas might pay off assuming it will be a long, long time (if ever) before American business assumes responsibility for this training again.

With all the new developments in 3d printers and cnc machines happening there might not be much demand for old school machinists in 5 years.

 

[meierlde]

With all the new developments in 3d printers and cnc machines happening there might not be much demand for old school machinists in 5 years.

CNC machining still needs someone to input what is to be made into the computer (as does 3d printing) The days of someone actually guiding a lathe or milling machine to make something are long gone. Today one needs computer skills as much as machining skills, (and thus more math training).
I wonder where one would find an old school training program now days anyway at a community college.

 

[W2R]

I have a very outdated attitude towards higher education but (like everyone) I think I am right.

In my opinion, the purpose of education is personal development and satisfaction - - study what you want to learn about, knock your socks off, get extreme about it, because you only live once.

From my viewpoint, the purpose of education is only related to job training obliquely, if at all. To get a great job I'd suggest a different approach. I'd tell a youngster to network like crazy, stay in great shape and be the most physically attractive you can be, and learn acting so that you can play the part and somehow learn to "fake it until you make it". People with those skills can get good jobs and earn a lot of money, without spending a lot of their time in college classrooms when they could have been working, gaining job skills and seniority and more. Get connections with people who are willing to help you to slide into a job, and the job itself may even pay for paper qualifications from a diploma mill to make sure that the lack of a degree won't hold one back.

On the other hand, I have four (genuine) advanced degrees and value all of them a great deal. I got the chance to explore some aspects of the universe that I was deeply curious about. To me, this is the one and only good reason to seek a higher education and it is the best possible reason imaginable. I will never regret my educational choices.

 

[Katsmeow]

I have lots of thought on this subject. I personally have a B.A. and 2 advanced degrees. Back in the day -- when I was starting college right after college -- I really had no clue what I really wanted to do and what I would be interested in. I didn't realize that...but I was really clueless. I ended up in a field that was well paid and was a career that I had a lot of talent for. It wasn't until many years later that I realized I really didn't like it.

Most everyone I know (me included) wants their kids to go to college right after high school. This is usually due to a fear that if they fail to do so then they won't ever go and will fail in life. Yet, as pointed out above, I think that most who are just out of high school really have no clue what they want or should do with their lives.

As far as specifics of college, I am not much of a fan of private, high-priced universities for undergraduate education. I don't think that they are a very good value. In fact, for most students I'm not sure that even a 4 year state university is a good value when the first 2 years can be done at community college for much less cost and (around here) can be transferred to the 4 year school for the last two years.

My son is currently in community college and recently decided to make a change in what he wants to study (English --> Business). So he "wasted" some courses and needs to make up and takes some other courses he didn't take before. In his case, he is just turned 18 (he started at 16) so I don't really mind the extra year in community college, but it sure makes it easier for me to feel that way since the economic investment is very low.

The bottom line is that he will ultimately transfer to a 4 year school and have a degree at much less cost. I feel that the real place to spend money for the expensive school is graduate school (if even necessary there). I realize that there are exceptions to this for particular courses of study.

As far as choice of career, I think you have to consider 3 factors: what are you good at, what are you interested in, and earning potential.

If you aren't good at it, then it makes little sense to study it.

Even if you are good it, if you don't like it then there isn't much use in studying it. My son was really, really good at math at a very young age. For example, he took Calculus when he was 13. And, everyone, of course was sure he would major in math or study a hard science. But --- he really didn't like it. Yes, it was easy for him. But he really wasn't interested in it.

Earning potential should be looked at, but can't override the first two. Maybe profession X makes a lot of money. But if you hate it and you are terrible at it, then it isn't a good choice for you. On the other hand, if you love a field that is relatively low paid, I would never counsel against studying it (I didn't counsel my son against majoring in English), but I would counsel the person to be aware of the earning potential and decide if that is tolerable and I would really, really consider it when doing things like taking out student loans (it makes no sense to take out $100k in student loans for a field that pays $30k a year).

All of that said -- the other major point is to remember that 4 year academic college isn't for everyone. In fact, I don't think it is for most people. For my son who graduated high school at 15 and corrects wikipedia entries for fun and who really enjoys reading and writing and has a lot of intellectual curiosity -- a 4 year academic degree makes a lot of sense and will fit within his talents and interests.

On the other hand, my daughter is high school is an average student, doesn't like reading or writing, has no intellectual curiosity, and doesn't like to do the things that college teaches. She has many talents, but they aren't academic in nature. She surely needs to have further training after high school, but I don't think that an academic degree is well suited to her interests or her talents. To push her to college would be setting her up to fail or be very unhappy and would be done solely on the theory that she would make more money with a college degree. That would come at the price of her happiness so I don't find it very worthwhile in her case.

 

[rodi]

I went to a good college and got a fine education, but I had no idea what I wanted to do and so no idea what I wanted to major in or what to study. I just stumbled along. In retrospect, I would have greatly benefited from a year or two off before college to figure out what I wanted.

+2

I did not go straight to college. Working as an insurance clerk for 2 years showed me what "career" path a non-degreed person would have. Decided to get an associates in Electronics technology - and quickly changed that to a BSEE.

Not sure I would have picked BSEE right out of high school and am very confident I wasn't motivated enough to succeed. Amazing how motivating it can be to know what it's like without a degree.

I'm not blowing off the idea of trades programs for my kids. Skilled trades (welding, plumbing, etc.) can command a pretty high $ income. If they show aptitude, I'll encourage that route.

Not sure I'd encourage engineering/software (my field) or architecture (hubby's field)... first is being offshored/onshored to much, latter doesn't pay as well as you'd imagine.

 

[LOL!]

I am one of those that knew what they wanted to do when they were in high school. I picked a college that would give me a degree in what I wanted to do. I went to grad school in the same subject. I have worked ever since graduation doing essentially the kinds of things I did both as an undergrad and grad student.

I don't know what anybody should make of that though other than to think that it is possible to have a one-track mind and career?

 

[Gumby]

I've done a wide variety of things and made a fairly good living at it. But if you had asked me as a teenager to guess what I'd end up doing in my 50s, I would not have come anywhere close to guessing right.

My college choice was pretty much dictated for me, since it had to be free.

 

[Independent]

I also have a Liberal Arts degree, but if I had it to do all over again, I would have gotten a Business degree.

What worked for many of us - wont work for the kids today. When I graduated from college - a college degree was special.....a lot fewer people had them. Every job I had only required a degree - they didnt care what it was in. Today, college degrees are more common place and companies look for graduates with specific degrees. The jobs I got in the past would not touch someone with my degree today. If you are going to pursue a Liberal Arts degree, you had best plan on some form of graduate school.

+1

UNLESS, of course, grampa is picking up the tab. In that case, spend four years pursuing whatever strikes your fancy.

If you need job training later on, go to your state university and take just the courses you need for that.

 

[FUEGO]

Point taken... I agree. My thinking is that instead of plowing all the money into universities, and leaving the students to pay, that the government could establish a subsidized apprentice program for the major industries, to encourage a return to the skills that would pay off for the country.

I read an article earlier today that says the government is doing just this by providing subsidies for businesses to train employees in apprentice type programs. Sorry, I don't have the link handy.

 

[travelover]

Like most 18 year olds, I had no idea what I wanted to study. Since I had no one to pay for my college, I stumbled along in a community college taking courses of interest, which were mostly liberal arts, and working a blue collar job (mechanic).

In retrospect, this time allowed me to decide what I wanted to do in life and gave me a solid practical background for my eventual career as a mechanical engineer. It also showed me clearly what I would be doing when I was 50 years old if I didn't get a college education. The thought of laying on my back at age 50 trying to get out a rusty bolt was a scary thought.

So, my advice to a pre-college student is to take time to find yourself and decide what you really enjoy doing that will also earn you decent living. Or if daddy is paying the freight, party like hell.

 

[Brett_Cameron]

When I was halfway through my senior year in high school, some people came from Ole Miss and talked to my math class at the invitation of my math teacher. They talked about engineering and how if you liked math and science and solving problems that we should consider that. I had no clue what I wanted to do but I knew a few things that I did not want to do like farm, be a grease monkey in a full service station, or work in a factory. Since I liked math and science, I wangled copies of the catalogs from a couple of universities to look at the course requirements. I looked at the various disciplines mechanical, electrical, civil, petroleum, chemical and nuclear. The petroleum I discounted right away since everyone said that that was dying industry. All of the rest had course titles that looked boring. Except for nuclear. I did not know anything about it so that is what I decided to get into. (they had lots of math and science classes required). I also remembered way back in the 2nd grade in Pittsburgh, PA that some people brought in a model of a nuclear plant. It was cool with circular buildings and rounded roofs. I went to a local junior college for two years and transferred to a 4 year university to finish. I ended up having to take 4 courses in summer school (worked full time during one of the summers) to be able to graduate in 4 years. I did not figure out what nuclear engineering was until my junior year. By that time I was ready to just finish school, being sick of it. At that time nuclear was a rising star, until the Three Mile Island accident and the economic situation afterwards.

It all worked out very well for me in the long run but I do feel I was lucky in choosing a degree and being able to earn a living. I have no regrets.

As far as advice, I think Katsmeow has the best summary I have seen with the three criteria -what you are good at, what interests you, and what has earning potential.

 

[flyfishnevada]

College is a scam! For a lot of people anyway. Many careers don't need it and you can be just as successful without a degree as you can with one. You don't need one for most trades or to open a business. If your kids are going to college to find themselves or pass the time, they'd be better off hiking across the country, getting a job or joining the military. If they want to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer, etc., go for it. If not, you'd be better off looking at other options.

 

[studbucket]

College is a scam!

Not a scam at all...just a waste of time and money for those who go to college either not knowing what to do, or just trying to get a piece of paper (diploma).

My brothers fall into that category. College could really help them (one wants to run his own coffee shop, so business courses would help), but they choose to be lazy, dumb, or just confused.

As a somewhat recent graduate, the biggest thing college can do for you is provide you with opportunities to prepare yourself for exciting, possibly high-paying jobs that you can't get elsewhere. However, I'd estimate that only 10-20% of college students actually take advantage of those opportunities (number made up). The rest "just happen to be there".

It's only been 3 years since I graduated with my master's, and at this point I wouldn't change a thing. We'll see what I think in 18 years.

Also, lots of college discussion in this thread from a few weeks ago, primarily focused on the finances of it. http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f30/how-should-we-think-about-college-savings-60258.html

 

[donheff]

Not a scam at all...just a waste of time and money for those who go to college either not knowing what to do, or just trying to get a piece of paper (diploma).http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f30/how-should-we-think-about-college-savings-60258.html

I'm not sure I am buying the waste of time. Going into massive debt, yes. But getting a degree is still worthwhile for the average smart kid. It is probably equivalent to having a HS diploma 50 years ago - many doors are closed without it. Both of my kids (38 and 26 today) were smart enough but clueless about what they wanted to do as a career (like me). DS got a BS in psych as a placeholder like I did, and eventually stumbled into a career that is working out quite well. He would have been just as capable of doing well without the degree but he would not have gotten his first job in the field without a degree. DD took a studio art major (what she loves) but did not have a plan and didn't find work. She lucked into a job teaching art in a private school after-school program and discovered she loves teaching (something she rejected out of hand when I suggested education as a minor). The school liked her and picked her up as a regular art teacher - something that could not have happened without the degree.

The best approach is to follow katsmeow's three rules. Unfortunately, many of us come out of HS clueless and never find a passion, never find our true talent. I think some kids can still do fine as entrepreneurs and in some fields without advanced schooling. But for the smart enough clueless (which, lets face it, are many of us) I still think college is a good stepping stone. Just do it frugally.

 

[Lsbcal]

A question about your philosophy, re: education.

A grandson is nearing college age, is quite bright, and probably will be successful in whatever he chooses as a profession. Now, the question arises... What college? What profession? How to merge future prospects with personal happiness.

I have my own feelings, but am really interested in what others may feel. ...

Hi Imoldernu, there is so much wise advise posted here, wow.

Will your grandson listen to your advise on this matter? How are you planning on delivering it?

 

[studbucket]

I'm not sure I am buying the waste of time. Going into massive debt, yes. But getting a degree is still worthwhile for the average smart kid.

<snipped>

I don't necessarily disagree with you anywhere. You qualify your statement by saying "for the average smart kid". You'd be completely right. But what about the not-so-smart kids? What about the smart kids with little organization or drive? What about the immature kids who've had it all paid for them and don't understand the benefit of what they are getting (for free from their parents)?

I wasn't talking about the "average smart kid", I was talking about all the other people that waste 3 years and drop out, those who coast through in 4 years and then complain when they can't get a job (I went to college with some, and they weren't getting internships, they were partying). Or even those who spend 6-7 years in college because they screwed around too much.

There are a whole lot of those people.

Also, massive debt (as an aside), shouldn't have to happen at all. If you get massive debt as part of college, you are probably doing it wrong. I posted on this here, in another thread.

 

[ShortInSeattle]

A question about your philosophy, re: education.

If you had it to do over again... what educational changes would you have made in your own life? Would that fit in with today's reality?

?

No regrets! I have a Business degree and it's been a good foundation for my career. After 10 years of work I went to grad school, only after I felt there would be a good ROI for my time and dollars.

College was cheaper back then. If I were doing it today I'd consider community college for the first two years.

SIS

 

[youbet]

With all the new developments in 3d printers and cnc machines happening there might not be much demand for old school machinists in 5 years.

Acually, there is little demand for "old school" machinists now. All training in machining, tool and die making, model making, etc., involves the new technologies.

Said another way, the demand for "machine operators" (an employee standing at a turret lathe all day cranking out parts for example) is near zero. But the demand for set up people, programmers, etc., is high.

 

[infoseeker]

I attended a community college straight out of high school....it was the thing to do back in the 70's.....you went to college after high school, even if no career in mind. I was bored after one year so joined the military. Finished 4 years active duty then completed a BS at Oregon State University. Had 4 years G.I. bill (and a part time job at the university health center) to cover 3 years of college, so had the luxury of taking my time completing a degree. Unfortunately, still undirected in what I wanted to do as a career, so finished with a BS in general science. Although had a degree worked quite a few years at a min wage job to finally discover that I wanted to go into the nursing profession. Went back to college for an additional 2 years and have been working as a registered nurse now for 24 years. Took six years of college to find a well paying/rewarding career. Would I take the same path again? Yes, but hopefully would have been more focused to turn that 6 years college into a masters degree.

College is just too expensive nowadays to do what I did....Perhaps the first year to explore and decide on a career, but an undirected path after that is risky if one is hopeful of a career type job.

 

[Avalon]

I suspect there is still a demand for manual (old school) machinists. Industrial areas will always have a need for service and repair shops with a variety of manual machines. The machinists employed will be proficient on all of them. These guys are highly experienced.

The more production oriented shops have moved from older turret lathes, screw machines, automatics, etc. to CNC. The set up men will tool, program, and adjust the offsets until they get the first few parts on size, then hand it off to an operator. Similar to what the 'old style' set up men did with the older machines - setting stops and such depending on the machine..

 

[Semiretired2008]

I suspect there is still a demand for manual (old school) machinists. Industrial areas will always have a need for service and repair shops with a variety of manual machines. The machinists employed will be proficient on all of them. These guys are highly experienced.

The more production oriented shops have moved from older turret lathes, screw machines, automatics, etc. to CNC. The set up men will tool, program, and adjust the offsets until they get the first few parts on size, then hand it off to an operator. Similar to what the 'old style' set up men did with the older machines - setting stops and such depending on the machine..

With the return of many manufacturing elements to the U.S. and with the fields dying off in the past - there is a shortage of machinists and the shortage is seen to be growing as more of the current ones retire...

A study done by the National Association of Manufacturers concluded the largest impediment to future growth is a skilled workforce. That's why training the next generation of machinists is critical to ensuring America remains a nation of builders.

Read more: On the Job Hunt: Machinists in High Demand | Fox News
​

 

[Nords]

He's on his way here to stay for 5 days... We'll exchange philosophies, as we always do... and he'll tell me about his summer readings... and there'll be a battle of the wits... and I'll lose. Three years ago, he wanted to be governor, last year, a neurosurgeon, this year, probably a sociologist, and by this time next year, an organizer in OWS.
Life is good... if you don't weaken.

Doesn't matter what you think about his college choices! I think the best thing you can do is help him plot out the selection approach so that he can figure out the criteria later and then apply them during the process.

Work it backwards from the start of senior year. Most applications are due by the end of the calendar year (first semester senior year) and the guidance counselors/teachers are swamped with paperwork/recommendations. (Some applications are due in October.) So he wants to make up his mind up by the end of junior year-- spend the summer filing applications and writing essays and pursuing recommendation letters-- and have five or six applications filed by September.

That means he wants to spend the summer before senior year visiting the colleges on his short list. The best way to do that is one-week in-residence programs (for science or engineering or liberal arts) run by plenty of the college's professors & students. He's there to check out the college, but they're there to check out him. It's far better than the high-school counselor because the profs can show him the cool lab gear and talk about his interests. The college students can talk about their interests and how they made their decisions. Most importantly of all, by the end of the week he'll be able to look around the campus and say "Yeah, I can do this" or "Eh, not my people". The cost of one or two of these summer programs is insignificant compared to the cost of a semester's false start.

The summer before junior year is when he visits 3-5 campuses for day trips. This can be problematic because he's probably turning 16 years old that year, which may mean that he'd rather focus on driver's ed and license exams. Some of these campus visits might have to happen during fall break of junior year or spring break of sophomore year. You can't expect much from these campus field trips because they're only for him to learn how to ask the questions, figure out what's important to him, and gain some confidence in his search skills. It's usually a morning presentation, maybe attending a freshman class with a student, lunch on campus, and another class or sports in the afternoon. If you have time then it'd be great for him to spend a night or a weekend in the dorm (while the parents tactfully disappear). By the time they've spent 24 hours with college profs & freshmen they'll have learned far more about their selection criteria than you or the high-school counselor can ever offer.

The summer before sophomore year is a good time to visit whatever campus is within a 30-minute drive. Take the tour, do whatever they offer, see how he likes it. It's just to get familiar with the tour & questions routine so that they can own the process instead of letting Mom & Dad do the heavy lifting. Treat it as an experiment, a learning experience, and a chance to ogle hot college chicks. Your grandson can also attend college fairs during that summer and during sophomore year so that they can chat about the choices with their friends, see all the colleges that are a far-away expensive trip, and collect a lot of cool swag.

Our daughter spent summer before her junior year learning how to drive, so college trips were off the table. We did her college tours during the summer before sophomore year, and that helped a lot. By the time she was choosing her high school AP classes, she knew what she'd need for college validation. Then during the fall break of junior year we visited the college that she's attending now. She'd seen enough college campuses before that trip to know that she'd found "the one" within 10 minutes of setting foot inside the gates. The rest was just hardening her confirmation bias.

Our daughter agonized over the choice between a service academy (USNA) and ROTC. Her week at USNA's "Summer Seminar" program helped her decide to pursue NROTC. The first two years of a service academy are free (no obligation) and the first year of ROTC is free (no obligation). If your grandson has even a casual interest in the military, then this is the time to figure out whether it's what he wants to do. One of my daughter's classmates actually dropped out of college (and the NROTC unit) during sophomore year, volunteered for the submarine force, and is now a machinist's mate on an attack boat. He knew college wasn't for him, but he'd seen enough to land on his feet instead of doing shifts at Taco Bell while living at home with Mom & Dad.

CNC machining still needs someone to input what is to be made into the computer (as does 3d printing) The days of someone actually guiding a lathe or milling machine to make something are long gone. Today one needs computer skills as much as machining skills, (and thus more math training).
I wonder where one would find an old school training program now days anyway at a community college.

It's still kinda hard to fit a CNC box down the hatch of a submarine, but those old-school lathes are essential to fixing pump shafts and a host of other broken gear...