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Old 06-24-2007, 01:28 PM   #41
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I think DARE has caused the drug attitudes of the younger teens to be slightly to the right of the John Birch society. They seem to grow out of it, though...
Any research on DARE's long term effectiveness? I know a young woman who was big on DARE when she was a kid. Now she is in narcotics anonymous.
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Old 06-24-2007, 02:14 PM   #42
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Old 06-24-2007, 04:26 PM   #43
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Obviously someone found a new bunch of smilies today.
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Old 06-24-2007, 05:17 PM   #44
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Any research on DARE's long term effectiveness? I know a young woman who was big on DARE when she was a kid. Now she is in narcotics anonymous.

I saw a study that said DARE made no difference in which kids got into drugs later. It makes moms feel good so it must be effective.
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Old 06-24-2007, 09:33 PM   #45
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Any research on DARE's long term effectiveness? I know a young woman who was big on DARE when she was a kid. Now she is in narcotics anonymous.
Off to wiki again (this has become a narcotic for me)... <my underlines>

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D.A.R.E. is ineffective

The U.S. Department of Education concluded in 2003 that the DARE program is ineffective and now prohibits its funds from being used to support it.[7] The U.S. Surgeon General's office, the National Academy of Sciences,[7] and the Government Accounting Office also concluded that the program is sometimes counterproductive in some populations, with those who graduate from DARE later having higher rates of drug use. Studies by Dr. Dennis Rosenbaum [8], and by the California Legislative Analyst's office [9] found that DARE graduates were more likely than others to drink alcohol, smoke tobacco and use illegal drugs.
Hmmm, those unintended consequences rear their ugly heads again.

I was actually mildly positive on the program. For one thing, I think it was good for kids to interact positively with a Police Officer, and to think of them as a friend, rather than to be afraid of them. I think I did get some weird comment from one of the kids though, because I have a beer with dinner. So, I think it may have been a bit over the top, to the point of being counter-productive.

My best guess is that this is an area that you try to teach your kids common sense, understand that there are consequences to actions, set a decent example, and then cross your fingers. The rest they just need to learn for themselves. Well, I guess that applies to pretty much everything.

-ERD50

edit/add: yep, another feel-good program. Funny how many of these feel good things just end up doing harm.

sorry - one more add/edit: looking at the wiki 'positives' - even the supporters do *not* list 'effectiveness' as one of the positives. I guess we finally have consensus on something! Too bad in this case.
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Old 06-25-2007, 01:40 AM   #46
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Any research on DARE's long term effectiveness? I know a young woman who was big on DARE when she was a kid. Now she is in narcotics anonymous.
Politics aside, that study made a big splash. For example, one DARE teen had been told that a drug (heroin? cocaine? I don't remember) was highly addictive. She tried it once, didn't feel addicted, and concluded that everything she'd heard in DARE was a lie. Teen logic, and of course it bit her on the third dose. I suspect that evidence-based medicine would also disapprove of DARE.

The good things about 5th-grade DARE were making friends with the police and learning about stress management. She understands a lot better what stresses her out.

But otherwise I think DARE gives kids a very black&white view that discourages nuanced conversation. Our little Breathalyzer used to regularly admonish me for having more than one beer at dinner. She'd comment that she's never drinking beer and I'd tell her that her tastes might change. (Like eating fish or beets...) She was horrified to learn that Bailey's Irish Cream could be described as chocolate milk with alcohol. (What are they teaching the kids in school these days?!?) She couldn't even conceive that it might be fun to drink, let alone that women have a slower alcohol metabolic rate or that genetics might make her more susceptible to alcohol abuse.

The movie "School of Rock" helped open the door a little. Our kid couldn't believe that I listen to music glorifying sex, drugs, and rock & roll. So I helped her decrypt a few of "her" Bob Marley lyrics and some of the Jawaiian & hip-hop she's been listening to, and she was absolutely appalled. She says that radio doesn't let four-letter words on the air, but The Who and The Steve Miller Band directly contradicted her faith in the law.

Now we have more nuanced conversations like 'When did you start drinking?" and "Why is it fun to get drunk?" I guess it's hard for the DARE instructor to give that kind of homework assignment...
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Old 06-25-2007, 11:55 AM   #47
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also check out the ratio of professors from overseas, my friends with majors that involved a lot of math and science were often very stressed out because their professors had heavy accents and/or used different symbols than were common in the US...this is common at Univ' of CA schools...
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Old 06-25-2007, 12:09 PM   #48
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also check out the ratio of professors from overseas, my friends with majors that involved a lot of math and science were often very stressed out because their professors had heavy accents and/or used different symbols than were common in the US...this is common at Univ' of CA schools...
A friend of mine was a systems engineer in a programming class. On the first day the prof dispensed with the textbook and started talking about a "bubba saur". Of course he was too busy describing the subject to bother to actually write any of it down on the board or use handouts, but he spent three days going over the concept and talking about programming strategies.

It took over a week for my friend to decrypt that to "bubble sort"...
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Old 06-25-2007, 12:44 PM   #49
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and started talking about a "bubba saur".

It took over a week for my friend to decrypt that to "bubble sort"...
It took me about 15 minutes to finally make the association between the uttered 'daslobadalyne' and the formula 'delta X over delta Y'.

Oh! The Slope of the Line - I get it!

-ERD50
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Old 06-25-2007, 01:55 PM   #50
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Old 06-25-2007, 07:21 PM   #51
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It took me about 15 minutes to finally make the association between the uttered 'daslobadalyne' and the formula 'delta X over delta Y'.

Oh! The Slope of the Line - I get it!

-ERD50
Actually, the correct association might not have happened quite yet; the slope of a line is 'delta Y over delta X'
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Old 06-25-2007, 07:55 PM   #52
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Actually, the correct association might not have happened quite yet; the slope of a line is 'delta Y over delta X'
You're right (of course)! (what, no more 'embarrassed' emoticon?). Ummm, it was a typo, yeah, that's it. No, No, wait, it was really ''daslobadalion' that equals delta Y over delta X. ''daslobadalyne'' was the INVERSE, yeh, that's it. And, the sun was in my eyes, I had a flat tire and ummm, it was a long time ago?

thanks - ERD50
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Old 06-27-2007, 03:44 AM   #53
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Nords,

I'm late to this thread, but have this to add - you know my background - AFROTC scholarship to state school - BS in mechanical engineering 1985 - did my active duty stint and then MS in biomedical engineering 1991 from RPI in CT (special program which was essentially a scholarship/work study). Have very fortunately not paid a personal penny for my education - all been done with scholarships. Some miscellaneous facts regarding being a woman in engineering:

I belong to SWE - they published some statistics regarding how many women are getting engineering degrees today -not very many. There weren't many when I graduated and it hasn't increased too much: (this is broken down by race - SWE has gone crazy in that way towards the diversity profile - but I think the stats are interesting)

BS engineering - 12% awarded in 2003-4 to white women - 56% to white men
MS engineering - 7% to white women - 29% to white men - largest percentage is to temporary resident men (39%)
PhD engineering - 6% to white women - 23% to white men - largest % is to temporary resident men (52%)

Anecdotal info -I spoke with someone's daughter who was going back for her masters/PhD in mechanical engineering - the good research universities were slobbering all over her to get her to attend - scholarships/work-study - etc.

Bottom line - go shopping for your daughter only see what they will pay, especially is she wants to go to graduate school. Women are considered a minority in the engineering and science fields and are courted. If your daughter is interested in the non-biological aspect, the more she can make. You said she liked environmental engineering right now - that's basically a branch of chemical engineering. She could also major in civil with a minor or emphasis in chemical plants or environmental design for civil purposes. At my undergrad college, you could have an aero degree with a mechanical emphasis or a mechanical degree with aero emphasis - same class set if you worked it right.

As for the maturity aspect of Academy grads - I have to second some of the comments here. In my career, I've found them to be either very hyper and ambitious or very laid back. This at times has been coupled with an entitlement attitude regarding what their particular service 'owes' them for their '4 year prison term - err college experience.' It takes quire a few years for them to mature and sometimes they don't.

Disclaimer - my father is a West Point Grad - I wanted to go to USAFA very badly and wasn't picked up (at that time in my life a very disappointing experience - however, in retrospect, I could have taken my ROTC scholarship and gone to some very good private schools if I'd applied - long story, but suffice it to say, I did a much better job choosing my master's experience and now consider myself one of the leaders in my chosen profession).

Have a great time visiting - wish I'd had the opportunity - I know your daughter will do very well, no matter what she chooses or receives.

Bridget
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Old 06-27-2007, 03:47 PM   #54
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MS in biomedical engineering 1991 from RPI in CT
Thanks, Bridget, you're one of the reasons that our daughter heard about RPI in the first place!

Those are interesting stats. I think env eng is just the teen flavor of the month but it gives her a focus for the tour. She also "expects" to get a master's degree someday but I don't know if she understands the level of effort required to do that-- just following her parents' example on the path to ER.

Spouse is going to a class this week with a USNA alumnus who has a daughter at USNA and another one at Notre Dame ROTC. Daughter #2 attended USNA's Summer Seminar and was offered an appointment but had decided by then that the yelling wasn't working for her. Notre Dame was quite happy to have her attend on ROTC's dollar.

My wife is learning a lot...
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Old 06-27-2007, 06:00 PM   #55
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Bridget has made some great points. I want her to know I was a member of SWE when I was an undergraduate. There were 6 legitimate females and me at the University of Washington in the early 70's. I became a member because I was the president of a club that had the rights to a room. They didn't have enough members to qualify so I lent them "my" room for their meetings/activities. I came close to marrying one of them but my (smart)sister didn't like her and I trusted her instinct.

I see a lot more women ChE graduates than in the other disciplines. Women seem to gravitate towards the biomedical and environmental areas. I've noticed women tend to "deselect" from plant jobs which probably documents a superior intelligence. I say this because I worked in plants for almost 30 years.

On degree selection I advised my children to avoid specialization with an undergraduate degree. I encouraged the choice to be based on what they are "best" at and enjoy the most. Civil typically pays terrible so I immediately discount it but in all honesty its an easier version of mechanical engineering. The remaining key engineering disciplines are electrical (math), mechanical (physics) and chemical (chemistry). Every branch of engineering will happily grab one of these grads for a masters program but I have to warn you that they are seldom cost justified even when "free." Employers are also happy to jump on these degrees to fill the more specialized degree opening. I have personally moved between "specialized" industries on the strength of my ChE degree.

If your daughter gets an environmental engineering degree that is all she will ever be considered for.

BTW -- If your daughter goes to the UW, I can guarantee her she'll have the opportunity to do undergraduate research. My ex-advisor is still there and I did 2 years of research with him. I had a published article and many other opportunities I was too stupid to realize I had at the time.
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:01 PM   #56
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There were 6 legitimate females and me at the University of Washington in the early 70's.
I think I speak for the entire board when I say that I don't want to know the criteria of an illegitimate female...

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I see a lot more women ChE graduates than in the other disciplines. Women seem to gravitate towards the biomedical and environmental areas. I've noticed women tend to "deselect" from plant jobs which probably documents a superior intelligence. I say this because I worked in plants for almost 30 years.
On degree selection I advised my children to avoid specialization with an undergraduate degree. I encouraged the choice to be based on what they are "best" at and enjoy the most. Civil typically pays terrible so I immediately discount it but in all honesty its an easier version of mechanical engineering. The remaining key engineering disciplines are electrical (math), mechanical (physics) and chemical (chemistry). Every branch of engineering will happily grab one of these grads for a masters program but I have to warn you that they are seldom cost justified even when "free." Employers are also happy to jump on these degrees to fill the more specialized degree opening. I have personally moved between "specialized" industries on the strength of my ChE degree.
If your daughter gets an environmental engineering degree that is all she will ever be considered for.
Wise advice.

I think that we're getting down in the weeds. Pretend that you're 15 years old with hormones surging through your body and you have not yet developed the brain-cell networks required to be capable of displaying electrical activity in portions of the cerebral cortex generally associated with rational evaluation & decision-making. Deduct an additional 50 points if you're a guy.

I don't think we're going to get much further than "Cool labs!" and "What's the food like?"

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BTW -- If your daughter goes to the UW, I can guarantee her she'll have the opportunity to do undergraduate research. My ex-advisor is still there and I did 2 years of research with him. I had a published article and many other opportunities I was too stupid to realize I had at the time.
OK, I've already been led astray by my assumptions on the "St. Johns" thread. You're referring to the University of Washington in the state of Washington, right? We might make west-coast & southern tours at a later date, and I'm compiling another list for that. Same criteria, though-- ~8000 or smaller, engineering curriculum, ROTC unit, women's basketball. She seems pretty firm and uncompromising on those and that's good enough for us.
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Old 07-18-2007, 07:20 AM   #57
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Notre Dame-- wow.

Land in South Bend seems to be pretty cheap (a topic for another thread) so the campus is really spread out compared to other schools I’ve seen. Parking still sucks, though, and bicycles are the preferred transportation.

Religion is very much at ND if you want it but a significant minority of the students ignore the entire culture. OTOH there are priests & nuns available to live in many of the dorms and the school is not ranked high on the “party hearty” lists. Programs seem split fairly evenly among engineering, pre-med, and liberal arts but the students seem more interested in achievement than in messing around. Of course the student body isn’t on campus right now to check whether that’s actually the case.

Many grateful alumni have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on the campus. It almost seems to be a status competition (one bequest required “the largest building on the campus”). I expected piles of old granite (established 1842) but the classroom & lab buildings are actually fairly new. Most classes are smaller but the classes that have to be big (freshman chemistry) are in modern auditoriums with stadium seating, huge large-screen projection systems, and good audio. If you can’t be in a small class then this is the best alternative. The faculty building was actually built in a multiple-wing design so that every professor could have an office with a window. The entire campus is networked & wireless; students have a printing budget of ~$100/year but most of them submit their work online.

Competition is keen. Most of the freshmen turned in SAT scores above 1300 (ACTs around 34). The selection rate has been lower than the service academies but 98% of the freshmen finish their first year and 96% of the students graduate in four years. Profs seem to actually teach their students and TAs are less common. There were a lot of tour questions about validating ND’s course requirements with AP exams… not many remedial students in this crowd. Also lots of questions about the new application coming out next month—many schools seem to be moving toward a common online application with less paper shuffling.

The NROTC program is one of the nation’s largest, along with big Army & AF programs. Much of the program & structures funding is provided by grateful alumni rather than the recruiting commands, so the ROTC staff have a brand-new building and (by military standards) very nice offices. The ROTC lieutenant we spoke with is a submariner who’s finishing up his executive MBA program and leaving the service but he says he’s really going to miss Notre Dame. He’s amused by the Navy’s requirement to start up a Notre Dame sailing program—Lake Michigan is the nearest major body of water.

Oh, yeah-- $46,000/year.

The question was asked “What’s the coldest it’s ever been here?” The admissions staff launched into a discussion of how the winter weather brings people closer together in the dorms, how much people enjoy seeing the snow, and how many winter activities there are near South Bend. She never actually quite got around to answering the freakin’ question, but another parent assured me that it was 15 degrees below zero. Classes had also been cancelled one day a few years back when the windchill got down to 60 below.

The place was pretty empty but there were a couple hundred students scattered around. (There were far more high school & middle-school kids at summer sports camps and a national baton-twirling competition.) Yes, Dan, the few co-eds that are still on the campus are major babes. I was assured that the same was true of the guys.

If I’d been able to visit places like ND 30 years ago then I doubt I would’ve applied to USNA. We’ll see if that’s true at CMU & RPI.

I have never seen so much flat terrain and cornfields in my entire life. Too many clouds & too much pollution, too, even an hour outside of Chicago.

Back to Chicago tonight, CMU tomorrow.
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Old 07-18-2007, 07:40 AM   #58
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How about my alma mater - Northern Michigan University. Student population of about 8,000... the CEO of Starbucks graduated from our school of business, one of the professors there found an atomic element one of the greatest chemistry minds of this centure was a native to the area (was confused since we've named one of the science buildings after him), women's BBall team. The school is too small to have TA's. Shores of Lake Superior is like living near an ocean but with more dangerous weather and it's always too cold to swim. Oh yeah, there's an ROTC program there.

But, best of all, average snowfall of 200 inches a year and they cancel classes if the windchill gets down to -60. We missed an entire week of classes one year when it never got above -100.. but usually the winters are much milder than that.

edit: Almost forgot. It's been a few years since I've been in school (10), but it was $1600 a semester, flat-rate tuition when I graduated.

p.s. This entire post was mostly tongue-in-cheek. But, on a serious note, good luck with the campus tour! ND is a great school, as are the others on your list

edit 2: Corrected misinformation. Oh, I should mention hockey... huge hockey following there. I'm not sure about the new arena, but the student seating at the old one was the best in the house. Talk about some wild games.
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Old 07-18-2007, 09:46 AM   #59
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college tours

Nords,

As long as you’re in the area considering schools in some of the most inhospitable weather, you might want to visit Rose Hulman in Terre Haute, IN. It’s an excellent engineering school, and small enough to meet your requirements.

My daughter made three separate trips to visit schools: one with her private school class up the east coast; one with her mom and I as far north as Princeton; and a mid-west tour with her mom. The school trips gave her more of a feel about where she DIDN’T want to be than it gave her a definite destination. There was an immediate dislike for University of Pennsylvania and the University of Chicago, don’t think she cared for the big city feel of the places. She wouldn’t even stay for the campus tour at Penn. Your daughter also sounds pretty independent and headstrong.

She ended up at Washington University in St. Louis and stayed one year. Transferred to UNC where she is deliriously happy now as a junior. Why she went to WU and not UNC to start with? Here’s my guess. Went to WU because, a) here mom pressured her, b) rated a little higher in the polls, and c) received more scholarship money. Bottom line, it was her decision, but she felt more comfortable at UNC with the people, climate, distance from home (GA), at 12 hour drive vs 6 hour drive, neither one close enough to come home for the weekend.

In retrospect, I think there was far too much obsession over the school thing. It was fun up to a point. DW pumped in hard. My college choice was much easier. Dad said I could go anywhere I wanted to, as long as it was University of Georgia or Georgia Tech. UGA allowed me to leave town.
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:32 AM   #60
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Dad said I could go anywhere I wanted to, as long as it was University of Georgia or Georgia Tech. UGA allowed me to leave town.
That's funny - I'm planning on telling my daughters the same thing, except their "any" schools will be either UNC or NC State University.
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