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Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 10:06 AM   #1
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Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
Mykids,

Change is constant and all who fail to adapt to it are setting themselves up for an unpleasant future.
Hi Wahoo,

I agree with you about change being constant and needing to adapt, but the question you asked me about unemployment due to corporations going overseas is a whole 'nother subject that probably doesn't even belong in this forum. But.....since I am the kind of person who likes to have the last word....(and I promise not to say anything else about this after this post...)...

The liberals have created this problem by imposing minimum wages on large employers. If employers could keep up with costs and increase productivity by staying in the USA instead of going abroad, they would. But with mandated minimum wages, the corporations have no choice but to go elsewhere in order to remain profitable and productive. On a good note, however, increased productivity created by eliminating menial work creates ALL KINDS of new opportunities for the people who lost jobs.

On the other hand, if you take away the kinds of jobs that the HAA would be taking away, those jobs are not going to be readily replaceable, and you will lose a big chunk of the money that was originally going to subsidize the low income people's health insurance.
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:09 AM   #2
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs

The liberals have created this problem by imposing minimum wages on large employers. If employers could keep up with costs and increase productivity by staying in the USA instead of going abroad, they would. But with mandated minimum wages, the corporations have no choice but to go elsewhere in order to remain profitable and productive.
Just think of how well employers could have kept up with costs and improved productivity had we not abolished slavery!

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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:15 AM   #3
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by REWahoo!
Just think of how well employers could have kept up with costs and improved productivity had we not abolished slavery!
I think we're supposed to blame that on the liberals too.
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:24 AM   #4
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by Nords
I think we're supposed to blame that on the liberals too.
The market will pay what the job is worth. When you impose minimum wages, all you do is create inflation, and make the costs of living higher for the very people you are trying to help.
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:26 AM   #5
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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I think we're supposed to blame that on the liberals too.
Damn Republicans! Abolishing slavery - just another example of their corrumption...
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:31 AM   #6
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
all you do is create inflation
MKLD, you have a tendency to overuse sweeping generalizations like "all you do", "everyone will want", and "have no choice" to support your arguments.

Instead of supporting them, however, I think it makes them more suspect. The minimum wage concept is much more complicated than you appear to appreciate, which means that you're either missing the point or deliberately oversimplifying it to make your own points.

That's especially true, in my opinion, in situations where you ascribe to politics what could be merely due to financial greed & stupidity.

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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:38 AM   #7
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by Nords
MKLD, you have a tendency to overuse sweeping generalizations like "all you do", "everyone will want", and "have no choice" to support your arguments.

Instead of supporting them, however, I think it makes them more suspect. The minimum wage concept is much more complicated than you appear to appreciate, which means that you're either missing the point or deliberately oversimplifying it to make your own points.

That's especially true, in my opinion, in situations where you ascribe to politics what could be merely due to financial greed & stupidity.

Yeah, but you have to love yet another rendition of RNC talking points...
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:40 AM   #8
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Yeah, but you have to love yet another rendition of RNC talking points...
See, now I'm confused-- is this stupidity, financial greed, or politics?
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:41 AM   #9
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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See, now I'm confused-- is this stupidity, financial greed, or politics?
Yes.
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:41 AM   #10
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by Nords
MKLD, you have a tendency to overuse sweeping generalizations like "all you do", "everyone will want", and "have no choice" to support your arguments.

Instead of supporting them, however, I think it makes them more suspect. The minimum wage concept is much more complicated than you appear to appreciate, which means that you're either missing the point or deliberately oversimplifying it to make your own points.

That's especially true, in my opinion, in situations where you ascribe to politics what could be merely due to financial greed & stupidity.
OK - Let me give you a specific example. I think I usually give pretty specific examples in my posts, but I'm sorry I didn't in this one. The other day I went to Wendy's to buy lunch for me and my kids. It cost $5.00 more than it usually does. When I thought outloud and said, "Oh, the recent minimum wage increase in our state must have caused the prices increases", the lady at the counter replied "You are exactly right. We had to raise our prices to compensate for the wage increases." So now, all of the people who work at Wendy's are going to have to pay more for their hamburgers and probably a lot of other consumer items that they buy. The increase in their cost of living is going to offset the benefit they get from higher wages.
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:44 AM   #11
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
OK - Let me give you a specific example. I think I usually give pretty specific examples in my posts, but I'm sorry I didn't in this one. The other day I went to Wendy's to buy lunch for me and my kids. It cost $5.00 more than it usually does. When I thought outloud and said, "Oh, the recent minimum wage increase in our state must have caused the prices increases", the lady at the counter replied "You are exactly right. We had to raise our prices to compensate for the wage increases." So now, all of the people who work at Wendy's are going to have to pay more for their hamburgers and probably a lot of other consumer items that they buy. The increase in their cost of living is going to offset the benefit they get from higher wages.
I'm convinced. Anecdotal evidence from a random stranger on the interweb is all I ever need to be totally convinced. Can you sell me an equity-indexed annuity, too?
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:49 AM   #12
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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I'm convinced. Anecdotal evidence from a random stranger on the interweb is all I ever need to be totally convinced. Can you sell me an equity-indexed annuity, too?
Ha Ha! Well, I figured I had to keep it simple, so the average person could understand where I am coming from. And, no...I can't sell you an equity-indexed annuity, because I am not a financial planner, and I am not licensed to sell financial products. All I do is sell health insurance.
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:49 AM   #13
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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When I thought outloud and said, "Oh, the recent minimum wage increase in our state must have caused the prices increases", the lady at the counter replied "You are exactly right. We had to raise our prices to compensate for the wage increases."
Well, heck, I'm completely disarmed by having to cope with anecdotal economics from the customer-service staff.

I was going to talk about the higher cost of raw materials, higher fuel costs, rising rents & property taxes, the difficulty of attracting quality employees in a time of record-low unemployment, increased health-care premium expenses, or opportunistically capitalizing on media reporting, or merely agreeing that the customer is always right... but, hey, I'm not a food-service professional so I'm probably not qualified to comment on these types of economic situations.

Do you have any studies that consolidate the economic analysis of the nation's counter staff, or any other economists who've looked at the situation in aggregate instead of in isolated anecdotes that happen to agree with your opinion?
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 11:58 AM   #14
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Do you have any studies that consolidate the economic analysis of the nation's counter staff, or any other economists who've looked at the situation in aggregate instead of in isolated anecdotes that happen to agree with your opinion?
You want fries with that?
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 12:05 PM   #15
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
OK - Let me give you a specific example. I think I usually give pretty specific examples in my posts, but I'm sorry I didn't in this one. The other day I went to Wendy's to buy lunch for me and my kids. It cost $5.00 more than it usually does. When I thought outloud and said, "Oh, the recent minimum wage increase in our state must have caused the prices increases", the lady at the counter replied "You are exactly right. We had to raise our prices to compensate for the wage increases." So now, all of the people who work at Wendy's are going to have to pay more for their hamburgers and probably a lot of other consumer items that they buy. The increase in their cost of living is going to offset the benefit they get from higher wages.
Gimme a break. This pathetic example has nothing to do with outsourcing to China. Are we going to order our fast food from overseas? A variety of studies cited in the media recently argue that minimum wage increases do not have a net negative impact of small businesses or on the well being of low wage workers - granted the debate is not settled.

How many jobs that are going overseas would be filled in America by people willing to accept the pittance that is reflected in the minimum wage? Certainly not computer programmers. Definitely not auto workers. Most minimum wage jobs are the short of low end service jobs (e.g fast food, Wal-Mart greeters, cleaning staff, etc) that can't be sent over seas. The higher paid manufacturing jobs and high skilled knowledge worker jobs are not filled with minimum wage employees.
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 12:07 PM   #16
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

Ugh,

I've GOT to call it a day. I am sure you will consider this oversimplification,
but I would need another week off to finish this conversation....
I believe all of the higher costs you mentioned above are functions of supply and demand. When supply is reduced, prices go up. This is true for raw materials, fuel, property, healthcare (not enough doctors, etc...In my opinion (see, I said IN MY OPINION), if you attack the root cause of the problem (whatever is causing the reduced supply or the increased demand), then you will have better luck fixing the problem than if you try to fix it by imposing employers to pay higher wages so that people can better afford these things.
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 12:22 PM   #17
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

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Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Ugh,

I've GOT to call it a day. I am sure you will consider this oversimplification,
but I would need another week off to finish this conversation....
I believe all of the higher costs you mentioned above are functions of supply and demand. When supply is reduced, prices go up. This is true for raw materials, fuel, property, healthcare (not enough doctors, etc...In my opinion (see, I said IN MY OPINION), if you attack the root cause of the problem (whatever is causing the reduced supply or the increased demand), then you will have better luck fixing the problem than if you try to fix it by imposing employers to pay higher wages so that people can better afford these things.
How exactly do you plan on "fixing" the root cause of higher material prices? The oil and gas fairy? Start up a volcano to create more real estate off the coast of California?
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 12:24 PM   #18
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

Isn't minimum wage calculated to take you just over the poverty line, so you lose Medicaid eligibility ?
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 12:30 PM   #19
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

Here's my historical take on things. Offshoring in the U.S. began with blue-collar workers in the manufacturing sector during the 1970s, and increased significantly in the 1980s and 1990s. Other sectors of the economy soon followed, with such jobs going primarily to East Asian countries such as China, South Korea, Malaysia and Taiwan. As a result, U.S. demand for labor shifted from blue-collar to white-collar workers and from an economy based on manufacturing to one based on services. Despite this sweeping transformation, U.S. companies began looking for ways to lower their labor costs once again, and focused their efforts on offshoring service jobs held by white-collar workers. The white-collar jobs initially offshored were primarily in personnel-heavy, unsophisticated business units such as call centers and back-office processing services. Numerous white-collar jobs in the high-technology sector soon followed in areas such as quality assurance, discrete software component programming, and ultimately software design and development.

The constant in all of the foregoing has been an increase in the knowledge and sophistication of workforces in other countries. As the U.S. offshores jobs requiring a low knowledge base to countries where the cost of labor is less, the only jobs remaining are those requiring a higher knowledge base. Naturally, there are fewer individuals in the U.S. capable of performing the latter types of jobs, thereby triggering the law of supply and demand. This is where education comes into play. The U.S. education system cannot keep up with the demand for high-level talent at a reasonable cost, forcing many U.S. companies to immediately look for new workers overseas, rather than first look for new workers at home.
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)
Old 12-19-2006, 12:56 PM   #20
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Re: Corporations going overseas (split from Senator Wyden...)

I only wish the Dems would be less hypocritical about their position on the minimum wage. They say they support the concept. They say they want it raised. Then they turn around and propose a pathetically small increase! What's the point? People receiving the new minimum will still be impoverished.
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