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Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-15-2005, 03:50 AM   #1
 
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Criminals and politicians...redundant?

I started a lively discussion on another thread when the subject of some questionable tactics by Nortel
was brought up by C-T. Decided to expand on my
somewhat inflammatory prose. Hang on.

It sounded like I was defending corporate malfeasance.
That is somewhat correct but (as usual) there is more to it. As you all know well, I have a heavy bias toward
rugged independence and looking out for yourself.
No whining! I accept that I have many advantages
over others, but all of nature works that way in spite of
our government's attempts to subvert her laws.
Speaking of laws, there is such a blizzard of laws,
legislation and litigation to day...........well, I am surprised anyone (other than attorneys and politicians)
would want to operate in such an atmosphere. This
(like my fictional doppelganger) was one of the main reasons I left the world of work. The Martha Stewart
situation is a good example. What she did is done countless times every day. Yet, she sits in prison
as I type. Why? Does the punishment fit the crime?
Of course not. Anyway, the ultimate result is everyone will be a criminal regardless of their intentions because
there will be too many laws for anyone to avoid
breaking some (actually I believe we are already there).
Thus, yes I have sympathy for corporate America, even
the ENRONs and TYCOs. Thye can not hurt me directly,
nor could they when they were operating outside
of the "law". My government OTOH is killing me bit by bit
every day by taxation and usurpation of my freedoms.
I still have the First Amendment, but that will go too at some point. Take "hate speech" for example. A truly nutty concept.

JG
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-15-2005, 07:18 AM   #2
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Quote:
Anyway, the ultimate result is everyone will be a criminal regardless of their intentions because
there will be too many laws for anyone to avoid
breaking some (actually I believe we are already there).

JG
John,

By the same token, there are already so many laws that the gov't can't enforce them all. This provides a level of personal freedom that I would expect you'd embrace. We all may break laws at some point (whether intentionally or unintentionally). Most violators are not prosecuted unless they go out of their way to draw the attention of the authorities, or, as in Martha Stewart's case, they are a prominent individual to begin with. Most of us can fly under the radar. Prominent individuals (including corporate executives) need to realize that they have to operate with more care than the average person because their violations are more likely to be noticed and prosecuted. That seems eminently fair to me. Those who reap disproportionate benfits from their positions in society should expect disproportionate responsibility.

Let the liberal bashing begin.

Grumpy

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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-15-2005, 07:24 AM   #3
 
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Hello Grumpy! It is true that "most of us can fly under the radar", but what kind of a system is that? Besides,
it only requires a small misstep on your part to find yourself squarely in the judicial crosshairs and end up in the slammer. We'd miss you too

JG
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-15-2005, 10:44 AM   #4
 
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Quote:
The Martha Stewart
situation is a good example. What she did is done countless times every day. Yet, she sits in prison
as I type. Why? Does the punishment fit the crime?
Of course not. Anyway, the ultimate result is everyone will be a criminal regardless of their intentions because
there will be too many laws for anyone to avoid
breaking some (actually I believe we are already there).
Thus, yes I have sympathy for corporate America, even
the ENRONs and TYCOs. Thye can not hurt me directly,
nor could they when they were operating outside
of the "law".
Everyone seems to come to Martha's defense but there are much better examples of laws and prosecuters gone awry. How about the people who are locked up for possessing marijuana (think the Preident's family)? I agree that we need less laws, but too much prosecution of white collar criminals isn't a big problem. Were you this enthusiastic when they were going after the Clintons?

You may be right, that you were'nt hurt by Enron, but many people were -- employees, stockholders, investors, and others in the communtity.
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-15-2005, 11:05 AM   #5
 
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Of course I just picked Martha Stewart as an example
because that was recent and ongoing. I could give a
thousand more examples to bolster my case, but will
spare you good folks that agony

As far as many good people being hurt by TYCO, ENRON, Worldcom and their ilk, absolutely true, and they have my sincere sympathy. However, in the vein of "watching out for NO. One" (that would be me)
it all amounted to a tempest in a teapot. Corporate
shenanigans have always and will always be with us,
human nature being what it is. Just deal with it and
don't whine. It is a hazard of life. OTOH, the government has a much wider reach and can easily
create a tsunami of social and financial destruction.
With good planning and a little luck I might avoid those
naughty corporations and their wicked executives.
I can't avoid the government. It's right there, every day.

JG
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-15-2005, 12:54 PM   #6
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

While protecting one's own interests is of top priority, we simply however cannot ignore the needs of others because of our interdependence of each other. If everyone behaves like an angel, government is unnecessary. Under this scenario, we will not need laws, policies or regulations since no one would steal, cheat, hurt others, exploit others, or ruin the environment. However, we are not angels! If corporations are allowed to operate freely without any restrictions, they would put out unsafe products, disregard the environment, and victimize the employees in the interest of profitability or greed. In short, we must care about the common good or the general welfare.
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-15-2005, 08:26 PM   #7
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

John, with all due respect, what is so "ruggedly independent" about collecting an unemployment check?

Reference to one of your posts in another thread.

Lance
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-16-2005, 03:28 AM   #8
 
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Hello Lance. In order to answer your question, I am forced to repeat. You will all please forgive me.

Although I am probably the most radical poster here
in terms of my political views, I have absolutely no porblem in taking any money/benefits that the
government will give me. I may be radical but I'm not
stupid. Chances are that money would be wasted
otherwise, or (even worse) spent on policies and
programs that I oppose. Thus, I never pass up a nickel,
and that is what made collecting unemployment comp.
so sweet. Honestly, the fact that it was "government money" coming back to me made up for the loss of
purchasing power. How's that? Clear enough?

Now my good friends, I am "gone to Texas". I trust you
will all carry on until such time as I return (if any).

Elvis has left the building

JG
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-16-2005, 08:18 AM   #9
 
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Instead of being "radical" as he says (radical means "having roots") John Gault is more of a Moral Relativist in the grandest tradition of the Kook Left. Rationalizing, and justifying whatever he needs to at the moment to agrandize himself, and pick and pocket or two. But of course you have to remember, he was a Business Man.
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-16-2005, 08:30 AM   #10
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Quote:
Chances are that money would be wasted
otherwise, or (even worse) spent on policies and
programs that I oppose.
JG
John,

What are the programs that you oppose?

Spanky
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Where is John Galt?
Old 01-17-2005, 09:41 AM   #11
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Where is John Galt?

TH, Cut-Throat, ex-Jarhead, Wab, SG, et al-- am I the only one wondering if John just said his farewell lines and exited stage right?

Is this an annual thing or is he not coming back?

I have to admit that if he was going to be lured into a response, Spanky's question would do the trick...
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Re: Where is John Galt?
Old 01-17-2005, 09:52 AM   #12
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Re: Where is John Galt?

Quote:
TH, Cut-Throat, ex-Jarhead, Wab, SG, et al-- am I the only one wondering if John just said his farewell lines and exited stage right? *

Is this an annual thing or is he not coming back? *

I have to admit that if he was going to be lured into a response, Spanky's question would do the trick... *
Hi Nords,

I assume that just means he's on the road for a few days and not linked to the internet. I think I recall him doing this last year too. I expect we'll see John in a week or so. He is not likely to take offense and leave just because of someone's comments on this board. :)

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Re: Where is John Galt?
Old 01-17-2005, 10:49 AM   #13
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Re: Where is John Galt?

Quote:
TH, Cut-Throat, ex-Jarhead, Wab, SG, et al-- am I the only one wondering if John just said his farewell lines and exited stage right? *

Is this an annual thing or is he not coming back? *

I have to admit that if he was going to be lured into a response, Spanky's question would do the trick... *
Nords: I have fired a few salvos over John's head in the past that were probably a little tougher than Spankys, and he's always fired back.
I'm sure that he is just getting out of the snow for a little bit.
JG's got skin thick enough to make a Rhino jealous, and like Arnold says, "He'll be back" :)
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-17-2005, 11:01 AM   #14
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Quote:
?

Now my good friends, I am "gone to Texas". *I trust you
will all carry on until such time as I return (if any).

Elvis has left the building *

JG
Looks like John went to Texas With the temperatures and wind today along with tonights forcast I wish I was with him...If he was gone I would miss his posts and invite him back.

Bruce
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Re: Where is John Galt?
Old 01-17-2005, 11:51 AM   #15
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Re: Where is John Galt?

Quote:
TH, Cut-Throat, ex-Jarhead, Wab, SG, et al-- am I the only one wondering if John just said his farewell lines and exited stage right?
Nah, he's just snowbirding I think. I'm 60-100 miles E/SE of him and it's single digits here today. I've got half a mind to take off for Texas myself, and I'm still dependent upon my income.

I took his comment in the mortality sense: tomorow is promised to no one.

I did have to think about it for a sec, though. An unusual signoff for him.
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-18-2005, 04:01 AM   #16
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

CT, how are you planning to use the laptop to get connected? I am going to try on my trip to connect through verizon cell phone service. I was glad to get the Gmail invite from WJ because I probably will end up using that email service. I have to stay in touch with work as long as I am working some.

Martha
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-18-2005, 11:05 AM   #17
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Martha,

I travel almost a third of the time since I mostly retired two years ago. It is rare that I can't find a local phone number to access from even the most obscure locations. I use aol and/or AZweb, but it seems like most service providers today are everywhere.

In the rare instance when a local number is not available and I need to keep in touch, I use a OneSuite phone card and pay about 3 cents per minute.

You could use a cell phone, but that seems like a costly and slow way to go.

I still haven't figured out how to stay in touch when I am camping in the wilderness. Not even a cell phone would help there and I don't own one anyway.
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-18-2005, 01:59 PM   #18
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

SG, I have cable internet so it isn't so easy. I have hooked up to the internet using my verizon cell phone and their internet service. The speed isn't bad if you are on the express network--their own digital network. It has worked for me in some out of the way places.

However, I haven't used the verizon system to send email yet. Also, I haven't used verizon yet to access my firm's network.

Free nights and weekends. Otherwise I have to use minutes. I will need to compose and read email off line to save the minutes.
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-18-2005, 02:13 PM   #19
 
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

Quote:
In the rare instance when a local number is not available and I need to keep in touch, I use a OneSuite phone card and pay about 3 cents per minute.
SG,

For Foreign countries, don't they jack up the cost per charge?
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?
Old 01-18-2005, 06:16 PM   #20
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Re: Criminals and politicians...redundant?

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SG,

For Foreign countries, don't they jack up the cost per charge?
CT,

You're probably right. I haven't traveled outside the US since I started using OneSuite. Prior to that, telephone charges have been the least of my worries related to internet connections in Europe, the Mid-East and Latin America. I've usually ended up borrowing time on the computers of friends or colleagues -- thus avoiding the modem issues, laptop charger issues, etc.
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