Current TVs/technologies?

[NW-Bound]

PS Getting further into CNET, I came across this article/pic, which would be a dream setup for me had we the space and funds...
TV vs. projection: Your TV is too tiny | TV and Home Theater - CNET Reviews
When I showed it to DW, her first response was, "I see he's a bachelor, eh?"

I think I am the only one who does not care about a gigantic screen. One reason I do not like to go to movie theaters is that the big screen and the loud sound give me a headache. My surround receiver (>15 yr old) is not currently hooked up to my TV for that reason.

That's said, I was joking about being "disgusted" with advances in electronics.

I am actually amazed at how they can produce these gadgets for so cheap. It's a cutthroat environment, and being an electronic engineer but working in industrial and aerospace applications, I am glad I was not in the consumer product arena. We would be even hungrier, if we had to sell our gear so cheap.

I mentioned earlier about my observation that newer electronics do not seem to last as long as what we bought 15-20 years ago. I think there's a lot of corner cutting there. But on the other hand, people do not seem to mind as much, as this would give them a chance to upgrade.

 

[Mulligan]

We will replace our 15 year old 31" crt tv this spring with the biggest flatscreen we can stomach--my but we thought that 31" was huge! I'm glad we waited til now to have skipped some technologies and to have seen enough other folks' sets to know we really want one.

So helpful to have threads like this one to read what others are doing and thinking.

15 years ago was about the time I first bought mine of that size. I had upgraded from a 21 inch and thought that thing was huge. That tv made me realize how old I am getting. When I first bought it, I moved several times and would just pick it up and move it by myself, no problem. A year ago, when I found it a home for someone who needed a tv, I about broke my back moving it by myself.

 

[explanade]

Panasonic plasmas. Cheaper and better picture quality than LEDs, which are set bright in showrooms ("torch mode").

I bought a 3D model last year, don't have the glasses. Didn't hook up wifi on the plasma or the Blu Ray player.

 

[explanade]

Oh and look up 'motion artifacts' when it comes to LED/LCD vs. plasma.

 

[eytonxav]

I have a 52" Samsung that is pretty nice, but DS bought a 55" Visio 3D set that is quite good. Although I was skeptical about 3D, I've seen a few 3D movies on his setup and was favorably impressed. I suspect alot of the better sets come with 3D, so I would not let that feature deter you whether you use it or not. Good time to buy a set is typically just before the Super Bowl.

 

[ERD50]

I am actually amazed at how they can produce these gadgets for so cheap. It's a cutthroat environment, and being an electronic engineer but working in industrial and aerospace applications, I am glad I was not in the consumer product arena. We would be even hungrier, if we had to sell our gear so cheap.

I am too, for some things I buy. But when you see how they go together in mass production, you get a sense of it. So much is based in the integrated circuit packages, and those are produced very cheaply now. And they get mass soldered to the boards. Hundreds, thousands of solder connections made with a single swipe of solder paste through a screen/mask, parts placed into the solder by machines that pick and place faster than you can follow with the eye, and then a pass through an oven to melt the solder. The solder flux is volatile, it just vaporizes off - no washing. Some minimal assembly - snap in a display, click a few case parts together - done!

So many circuits are pre-tuned at the IC or package level, so no big process of tuning pots/coils/caps like in the old days. A lot of self-testing too. Just power up, and verify a few things, and you have a good confidence that it is functional. And if not, it's not as important as an industrial aerospace device, so corners can be cut.

I mentioned earlier about my observation that newer electronics do not seem to last as long as what we bought 15-20 years ago. I think there's a lot of corner cutting there. But on the other hand, people do not seem to mind as much, as this would give them a chance to upgrade.

I wonder about this. No doubt it is true in some cases. Things like cell phones are going through so many changes, I really don't think too many people expect to keep them 10+ years - why build them to last if only 1% would keep them anywhere near that long? Really inexpensive stuff may have cheap buttons/switches, so those only last so long. Or a battery that isn't user-replaceable - a cheap product may not be worth the effort to take apart to get to the battery. But for other things, esp non-portable, I just don't know. I've got a scanner and printer that are ~ 12 YO and going fine, and those have a lot of mechanical stuff. And if I look around the house for stuff that is 20-30 years old (I have a few stereo receivers that old), well, that is survivor-ship bias. How much stuff died that I've long forgot about? I guess I'll have to get back to you in ten years about my current stuff

That's said, I was joking about being "disgusted" with advances in electronics.

But it is something I hear from time-to-time. And I respond as I did here - people would like it better if prices went up? Who knew?

-ERD50

 

[Tyro]

I also read that article on Yahoo -

Biggest technology flops of 2012 | Digital Crave - Yahoo!

I'm not a fan of 3D TV and expect it to fade away for the reasons the article mentions.

Ok -- now that I've read the article (and this really has nothing to do with which HDTV we'll wind up with or why), the reasons I see (JMO--ICBW) for [-]fading away[/-] a stall in 3D "adoption rate" are 2:

1. Both technologies have significant drawbacks (clunky expensive glasses vs. loss of HD). The technology/industry will have to shake out as it did with VHS vs. Betamax and Blu-ray vs. HD. Neither drawback is insurmountable; the latter will become irrelevant if UHD ever catches on (which I have some reservations about).

2. 3D is great for movies, sports events, and some other kinds of programming, but unlike HD, it's not practical for everything all the time. Headaches notwithstanding (a small percentage of general population) nobody is going to (want to) wear glasses all the time, anymore than headphones. 3D without glasses is on the horizon (a LOT of folks working on it) -- maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow... If/when perfected, 3D will be here to stay, and I don't think it will be all that long. (Ask those consumer electronics folks who work so hard to bring us those whizz-bang techtoys. )

What I disagree with in the article is the expectation that less and less 3D content will be coming out. Like PIP and other features people may never/seldom use, I think it'll be there, especially on Blu-ray discs.

Tyro

 

[explanade]

Next big thing is 4K TV.

Prices will have to come way down though.

 

[Tyro]

I've got a scanner and printer that are ~ 12 YO and going fine, and those have a lot of mechanical stuff.

We have an HP 5L laser printer that's a tank; can't toss it cuz it just won't quit. We bought an all-in-one printer a couple years back for color & scanner, and looking inside, I can't believe they could produce it for what we paid for it, let alone R&D, design, marketing, etc., etc. Hundreds of parts for under $150? Even with slave labor...

 

[Tyro]

Next big thing is 4K TV.

Prices will have to come way down though.

I just read these opinions. They seem to make sense, but I'm not tech-savvy enough to know.

Why 4K TVs are stupid | TV and Home Theater - CNET Reviews

Three TV improvements more worthwhile than Ultra HD 4K | TV and Home Theater - CNET Reviews

 

[NW-Bound]

I am too, for some things I buy. But when you see how they go together in mass production, you get a sense of it. So much is based in the integrated circuit packages, and those are produced very cheaply now. And they get mass soldered to the boards. Hundreds, thousands of solder connections made with a single swipe of solder paste through a screen/mask, parts placed into the solder by machines that pick and place faster than you can follow with the eye, and then a pass through an oven to melt the solder. The solder flux is volatile, it just vaporizes off - no washing. Some minimal assembly - snap in a display, click a few case parts together - done!

Yes, I know how these are made. Or perhaps I should say "knew". The last time I worked in a project that went into production was 10 years ago.

Back then, chips with hundreds of pins spaced 12.5 mil (0.3 mm) apart were just getting into common use. Prototyping with them was already a real pain. Try to probe a pin without shorting the one next to it was impossible. Worse, some critical high-frequency chips were highly dependent on the PCB design that they were soldered on. Going through a via and that added another nanohenry of inductance, and that affected the chip function. I was getting more and more frustrated working with these chips.

In the last 10 years and until recently when I stopped, I have been doing more analytical work on larger systems, and have not had hand-on experience like my previous work. Just a month ago, my son invited me to visit the electronic lab where he worked. He showed me some of the IC packages that they worked on. It blew my mind.

I am glad I am not working with modern electronics anymore. It's too tough!

 

[ERD50]

We have an HP 5L laser printer that's a tank; can't toss it cuz it just won't quit. We bought an all-in-one printer a couple years back for color & scanner, and looking inside, I can't believe they could produce it for what we paid for it, let alone R&D, design, marketing, etc., etc. Hundreds of parts for under $150? Even with slave labor...

Razor/blade approach. They make it up in ink costs.

But yes, my printer has a fair amount of mech assembly. I've had it apart to replace the ink 'waste' pads, and I was pretty surprised I got it back together and working. But again, in a factory they have assembly aids to hold all those springy parts in place, and very agile young people with excellent eyesight doing this. At even $5/hour, it might take 6 minutes when you become familiar with it, so that's 50 cents labor cost.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Yes, I know how these are made. Or perhaps I should say "knew". The last time I worked in a project that went into production was 10 years ago.

Back then, chips with hundreds of pins spaced 12.5 mil (0.3 mm) apart were just getting into common use. Prototyping with them was already a real pain. Try to probe a pin without shorting the one next to it was impossible. Worse, some critical high-frequency chips were highly dependent on the PCB design that they were soldered on. Going through a via and that added another nanohenry of inductance, and that affected the chip function. I was getting more and more frustrated working with these chips.

In the last 10 years and until recently when I stopped, I have been doing more analytical work on larger systems, and have not had hand-on experience like my previous work. Just a month ago, my son invited me to visit the electronic lab where he worked. He showed me some of the IC packages that they worked on. It blew my mind.

I am glad I am not working with modern electronics anymore. It's too tough!

Yes, the stuff I was working with (almost 10 years ago, so I really don't know where things are today) was Ball Grid Array - there were no 'pins', nothing to probe (unless it connected to something probe-able like a surface mount component with exposed terminals, but many connections were from one BGA chip to another BGA chip) - it was all soldered underneath the package. It would take x-ray to inspect the solder joint.

I think the development guys could only do so much lab work and simulation, then they just had to have a PCB made and try it. Adding break-out points for analyzing would increase the parasitics and affect the performance, as you mentioned.

So here's a BGA, the pcb with solder paste screened on it, and a side view of the outside pads after soldering:

So when it is finished, this is all you see

-ERD50

 

[MDJO]

We are all Vizio. I'm embarrassed to admit that we have four of them.....never had a problem.

 

[Tyro]

We are all Vizio. I'm embarrassed to admit that we have four of them.....never had a problem.

If you don't mind my asking (PM if you'd rather), LCD or plasma, what size(s), & how long/old?

 

[Nords]

I don't really care about 3D TV at this time, but as the article states, the better sets may all have it anyway, so we'll make sure the (whichever kind of) glasses are piggybackable over what we're wearing now.

Learned that a long time ago, in [-]a galaxy far far away[/-] this galaxy! So I avoid electronics stores/departments unless I'm actually shopping for something specific.

If your broken CRT HD TV started working again tomorrow then would you stop shopping and still keep it?

If so, then why not try your local Craigslist for a used CRT TV? We used to pay $50-$100 for used 27"-29" CRTs (one of which was HD ready) and a few months ago we got a 29" CRT (no HD) for free.

CRT died prematurely? I thought they all disappeared years ago.

My spouse is snapping them up as quickly as her incumbents burn out...

Her primary TiVo died a couple weeks ago (after six years of constant use, but on a lifetime agreement) and it looks like a bad hard drive. Yet she's happy with her backup TiVo (also nearly six years old, also lifetime agreement) and doesn't even want to fix the primary TiVo's HD until the backup TiVo begins glitching. If we find a cheap Series 2 TiVo on Craigslist, though, we may buy it just to cannibalize the HD.

 

[REWahoo]

If your broken CRT HD TV started working again tomorrow then would you stop shopping and still keep it?

You and your rhetorical questions...

 

[Tyro]

If your broken CRT HD TV started working again tomorrow then would you stop shopping and still keep it?

Yes, but irrelevant. It's toast.

If so, then why not try your local Craigslist for a used CRT TV? We used to pay $50-$100 for used 27"-29" CRTs (one of which was HD ready) and a few months ago we got a 29" CRT (no HD) for free.

Because the decision has been made for years that the next set would be a larger flat screen HD. It just came earlier than anticipated (as have other things -- like ER).

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes, the stuff I was working with (almost 10 years ago, so I really don't know where things are today) was Ball Grid Array - there were no 'pins', nothing to probe (unless it connected to something probe-able like a surface mount component with exposed terminals, but many connections were from one BGA chip to another BGA chip) - it was all soldered underneath the package. It would take x-ray to inspect the solder joint.

BGA was available in my time too, but I preferred to use the Thin Quad Flat Package, as the stuff we built was only in low-volume production, and we wanted to avoid the hassle with BGA. The advantage of BGA is of course smaller packaging. Back then, the chips that I used were available in different packages, but I started to see newer chips were made in the BGA form only.

I saw another engineer troubleshooting a batch of boards that had BGA chips with cold-solder joints. He pressed down on the suspect chip, while turning the equipment on, for the balled pins to make contact with the board. Then, once it was confirmed, he continued to run test with a C-clamp with a throat deep enough to reach the chip. A judicial amount of pressure was needed to avoid cracking the chip or the PCB. They had a machine that could heat individual chips locally to remelt the solder, once the diagnostic had been made. I figure this kind of repair would be way too expensive for a production line of consumer products.

And what my son showed me was a form of BGA.. What blew me away was the thinness of the package, its small overall size, AND the closeness of those balls. Good grief! But I figure you need things that small to go into the newer superthin and lightweight gadgets of the future. I quit!

 

[ERD50]

... They had a machine that could heat individual chips locally to remelt the solder, once the diagnostic had been made. I figure this kind of repair would be way too expensive for a production line of consumer products.

No, with high production rates you could pay for that equipment pretty quickly in reduced scrap costs - at least on the more expensive consumer products. Maybe a retail $40 mp3 player or something would just be scrapped, I don't know. I didn't work on that end if it too closely, but IIRC there was a specific heat profile programmed in for each chip on the board, to optimize and not overheat anything else.

And what my son showed me was a form of BGA.. What blew me away was the thinness of the package, its small overall size, AND the closeness of those balls. Good grief! But I figure you need things that small to go into the newer superthin and lightweight gadgets of the future. I quit!

I used BGA a bit generically - it might have had some more initials to describe the size. I don't recall any of that, but the were tiny. Some of the Rs and Cs were about the size of a grain of salt.

I still take apart just about anything that breaks before I recycle it (assuming I couldn't repair it), just to see what they are up to these days.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

The boards that I saw that engineer troubleshoot were very expensive, and they were for a low-volume aerospace application of perhaps 500 units/yr. The boards had been made for a while, then suddenly started to exhibit early failure. It was definitely an inadvertent change in the soldering process that was the cause. The cost of repair was not just the cost of the equipment, but the labor cost of a senior engineer plus a couple of technicians just to diagnose the problems with each board. I do not know how failures like that are treated in the consumer world, but the cost of repair if a board is to be salvaged would have to be a lot lower than what I saw, which could be $1K+ per board.

My point about what my son showed me was that the new packages are getting smaller and thinner, much minuscule compared to the BGA packages I saw 10 years ago.

Yes, I still open things up to see what is inside, but only after they fail. When I was much younger, more impatient and more curious, I would open things that were still working fine. Well, I soon learned not to do that.

 

[MDJO]

If you don't mind my asking (PM if you'd rather), LCD or plasma, what size(s), & how long/old?

Oldest one is from February 2006, a 42" LCD. Two others are 37" (I think) and the last one is in my kitchen (32"). All are LCD's.

 

[NW-Bound]

We went to Costco again yesterday, not to buy anything but food items for the holidays. Spent a bit of time looking at the TVs.

Son of a gun! I did not see that much difference in picture quality between the cheaper ones and the expensive ones. First, it's my palate that was gone, then my aural appreciation of HiFi equipment, now my visual acuity. What's next to go, I wonder. What's the point of taking WR above 3.5% if nothing matters to you anymore?

Anyway, the ones with WiFi built-in cost about $150 more than the ones without. However, one can add that with a $90 Sony Blu-ray player like the one I just bought as a lark. I still have to finish setting up my DLNA server to play MP3 and video files, but like that Blu-ray player so far.

 

[Tyro]

We went to Costco again yesterday, not to buy anything but food items for the holidays. Spent a bit of time looking at the TVs.

Son of a gun! I did not see that much difference in picture quality between the cheaper ones and the expensive ones.

That may not be your sensory acuity failing. The recent (11/12) Consumer Report article on HDTVs (link below) noted that, "All .... TVs in the Ratings (which include 3D sets) are recommended models with excellent or very good picture quality." So for us [-]peons[/-] non-videophiles there may be little/no noticeable difference, especially in that kind of less-than-optimal environment.

That said, we did make a decision and purchase, and for anyone who may be interested, here's an outline of our process, with some observations.

1. While we consulted a LOT of sources (first two pages of Google search) most were of little/no help, and/or were eliminated due to bad/biased/incomplete information. The main sources we wound up finding most helpful and useful were (in no specific order/preference, NAYY):

A. Consumer Reports -- their article & ratings are for lay consumers rather than techno-geeks, with excellent info. & advice. In their ratings, in several cases, they rated same models of different sizes differently, which didn't make sense -- the guts are the same within a model family.

B. CNET -- Excellent techno-geek stuff that admits their biases, but still provides objective information understandable by tyros like myself. Very in-depth reviews.

C. Digital Trends -- A lot like CNET; also has excellent reviews, useful for confirmation and differing POVs.

D. AVS Forum -- While a good site, much of the information they had on specific reviews/recommendations was woefully out of date (going back 2-3 years in some cases), and bias was rampant (not necessarily a bad thing -- there were definitely nuggets to be mined).

E. Amazon -- Only for customer ratings when representative of a large sample (over 100) of customers.
​

2. After reading the buying guides (informational articles) and deciding on which specific size and type (Plasma or LED), we accumulated several "Recommended/Best of" lists, and compiled the information on a spreadsheet, noting models, ratings, and making notes. This way we could easily spot models that were recommended by multiple sources. We also noted the ratings on Amazon if/when they constituted a large sample of customers. This compiling allowed us to pare an initial list of 50+ models down to a final list of ~10.

3. Then we read the reviews on specific models on CNET, Digital Trends, and AVS Forum (if they had one) to become familiar with features, pros/cons. By then, we had it down to 2 or 3 mfrs, and 2 or 3 models each.

4. Then we went out to SEE each model (which in the long run means more than any review/specs.) and "A-B'd" brands and models, noting prices at various outlets and online.

5. We went home, evaluated our data, and made a list of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th choices (in case of availability problems), and....

6. Went shopping.

In our case (YMMV) we didn't bother with online prices, because we weren't comfortable with having such an item shipped to find out it was damaged, and have to go through the hassle of exchanging/returning. We also like to shop local whenever possible.

BTW -- I noticed someone posted back in Nov. '12 that Best Buy included online prices in their price guarantee. That is not what it states on their website (online prices are specifically excluded) and they didn't go for it in person either. It may have been a temporary policy that didn't work out for them. N.B. Read price guarantees, warrantees, etc. carefully.

Our new set is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. (XX)

Tyro

 

[Bestwifeever]

...
That said, we did make a decision and purchase, and for anyone who may be interested, here's an outline of our process, with some observations...

Congrats!

What did you buy?

Did you get an extended warranty (I believe somewhere I read that this is one purchase that warrants the warranty )?