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Old 03-24-2015, 01:50 PM   #181
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I'm the parent of two young children (1 and 4). One thing I think I will encourage is going away to a college that is at least an hour drive away. My starting inclination is to pay full tuition and books, but expect that they pay their basic living expenses themselves via part-time jobs.

I think having the kids live at home during college may delay the natural push towards independence that moving out provides.
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Old 03-24-2015, 02:41 PM   #182
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Our son got laid off from his first job after college (during the Great Recession), took part of his severance, went on a 6 month adventure, and then showed up at our door. He was a mess. He was very confused and scared, and basically immobilized. It took a few months, but his dad gave him a deadline to move out. "Job or no job, you need to be out of here by xxx date". He was shocked, but it jolted him. He spruced up his resume, got a job, moved out of town, and is doing great. Don't enable her. Deadlines and lines in the sand get attention (if you stick to them).
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Old 03-24-2015, 02:51 PM   #183
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Hear, hear! Kids today do not have it "easy," but they don't have it any harder than some did 35-40 years ago; let alone 35-40 years before that (my parents told some hair-raising tales of bad jobs, desperately hung onto, and eating crackers and ketchup off restaurant tables). The "we have it harder these days" is a myth the young ones are all too ready to believe. Well, Iguess, if it makes them feel better....

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Or I compare todays kids with men at least 1941-1945. At that time if you were between 18-35 you were in general going to the military, unless you had a war important job. (and many such as Asimov were drafted after the war ended also, because their deferment expired). So compare today to that generation where men knew what they would be doing.
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Old 03-24-2015, 05:13 PM   #184
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I'm the parent of two young children (1 and 4). One thing I think I will encourage is going away to a college that is at least an hour drive away. My starting inclination is to pay full tuition and books, but expect that they pay their basic living expenses themselves via part-time jobs.

I think having the kids live at home during college may delay the natural push towards independence that moving out provides.
That's the route I took with my kids (one has graduated and one is a sophomore). It's a two-hour drive, but DW drives up there at the drop of a hat anyway (I never bought the kids a car, which is another thing I kept saying..."the car comes after you graduate"). Although unless they can get a work-study gig, it's hard to find work near campus without a car.

The idea of sending them away to a somewhat distant school to gain that independence was always where I stood. The first one had minor pangs and my heart sunk a little then, but when the second one had a fairly serious rough spot in her freshman year. I questioned and still question the wisdom of the living away no matter what idea. Although she never made a serious play for a college close to home, my daughter probably felt boxed into living away because of me. She's on a good track now, but that was a bit of tough growing up she had to do, and it broke my heart to see it. I'll never know if those bumps would have happened regardless of me pushing for living away or not. But you have plenty of time to think about it. Not all kids are the same.
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Old 03-24-2015, 05:33 PM   #185
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Or I compare todays kids with men at least 1941-1945. At that time if you were between 18-35 you were in general going to the military, unless you had a war important job. (and many such as Asimov were drafted after the war ended also, because their deferment expired). So compare today to that generation where men knew what they would be doing.

Getting blown up in a foreign country?

J/k, of course. It was eye-opening to me that many of those interviewed for Ken Burns' documentary on the Depression said that when they got a position with CCC or WPA and such, it was the first time they owned shoes. I'd imagine, along with the death and destruction involved, that many WWII draftees got their first taste of decent meals, clothing, medical care, etc. in the military.


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Old 03-24-2015, 07:51 PM   #186
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I guess the easiest way to cut them off is to do what parents of a good friend of mine did I guess about 20 years ago. The day he packed and moved to his college his mother told him they love him and he is welcome to visit anytime, but under no circumstance would he be allowed to move back. That story still cracks me up. I asked if he was a teenage hellion back in the day and he said no, but he believed them so he never tried.


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Old 03-24-2015, 11:26 PM   #187
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I'm the parent of two young children (1 and 4). One thing I think I will encourage is going away to a college that is at least an hour drive away. My starting inclination is to pay full tuition and books, but expect that they pay their basic living expenses themselves via part-time jobs.

I think having the kids live at home during college may delay the natural push towards independence that moving out provides.
Every situation is different. Not everyone kid who is ready to do college level work is ready to live away from home. For my ADHD son, he did start at community college, living at home. He then transferred to a university and commuted (an hour away)

In fact he didn't move away to school until he was 20. I find that sometimes parents think that all kids are automatically ready to go away to school just because they are old enough to start college. That isn't the case.

For my son, we told him there were 3 criteria he had to meet before he could go away to school:

1. Take his medication consistently without being reminded. (Very important in his case).

2. Wake up in the morning on his own and get to class every day. This was a kid who routinely could sleep through multiple alarms. What finally worked was we bought an alarm that would also cause his bed to vibrate.

3. Manage all of his deadlines for his classes on his own.

When he started college he couldn't do any of these. He did have some rough times as a result (and one really bad semester in college when he utterly failed at managing his deadlines and times). But, over time, he was able to do all of these things. Last fall, he moved into an apartment and is doing very well. I have no doubt that if we had simply sent him away to live in a dorm just because he was in college, he would have crashed and burned the first semester.
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Old 03-25-2015, 09:06 AM   #188
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I wasn't suggesting that one-size-fits all. I was just suggesting the way I am leaning. The strategy may change depending on the kids themselves, obviously.

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Every situation is different. Not everyone kid who is ready to do college level work is ready to live away from home. For my ADHD son, he did start at community college, living at home. He then transferred to a university and commuted (an hour away)

In fact he didn't move away to school until he was 20. I find that sometimes parents think that all kids are automatically ready to go away to school just because they are old enough to start college. That isn't the case.
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Old 03-25-2015, 10:12 AM   #189
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....It was eye-opening to me that many of those interviewed for Ken Burns' documentary on the Depression said that when they got a position with CCC or WPA and such, it was the first time they owned shoes. I'd imagine, along with the death and destruction involved, that many WWII draftees got their first taste of decent meals, clothing, medical care, etc. in the military....
I often wonder if it would be a good idea to require a year or two of mandatory public service (military, VISTA, Peace Corps, or whatever) of all our youth. I just have a sense it would given the downtrodden a leg up to seeing their potential and would give those of means some humility and as a whole we would all be better off in the long run. Not to mention adding a couple years of maturity before beginning training for their life's work and perhaps we would get more college graduates on the 4 year plan like we did rather than the 5, 6 or more extended plans. I know in my case a life changing event was working in a low wage, grunt job and realizing that I would be best to make the most of the college opportunity that was in front of my face.

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Old 03-25-2015, 10:12 AM   #190
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My buddy did the same stuff when he was your daughter's age. His dad rented an apartment in a crappy neighborhood, made him pack, took him there, gave him $100. Said bye, your welcome to come by for Sunday dinner.
Ha! As a former landlord, I could spot these types a mile away. And it didn't take me long to realize I was getting stuck with a problem the parents were unloading. No thank you.
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Old 03-25-2015, 10:18 AM   #191
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It'll also make a difference when the roles are reversed and it's time for the children to step up and help their parents.
I feel that if you ever become financially dependent on your children, you've failed at life.

In addition, I believe that having kids with the expectation that they'll look after you in your old age is incredibly selfish and callous. Ever think the kids might have better things to do than wipe your a**?

There are many reasons to have kids (so I'm told; I never saw the upside personally), but creating a financial safety net should not be one of them.
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Old 03-25-2015, 10:39 AM   #192
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A neighbor of mine has a 37 year old who will not leave. She doesn't make him pay rent, and he borrows her car constantly. She has not done him any favors by not kicking him out. Tough love is needed to make him mature.
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Old 03-25-2015, 10:46 AM   #193
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I feel that if you ever become financially dependent on your children, you've failed at life.

In addition, I believe that having kids with the expectation that they'll look after you in your old age is incredibly selfish and callous. Ever think the kids might have better things to do than wipe your a**?

There are many reasons to have kids (so I'm told; I never saw the upside personally), but creating a financial safety net should not be one of them.
Needing assistance from others can manifest itself in many ways. In my earlier post I was not thinking about money, I was thinking about health, growing old, and dealing with life's challenges. That's all.

The rest of your post - regarding hygiene, selfish and callous attitudes and reasons for having children have nothing to do with anything I wrote or implied. On both counts we can disagree without being disagreeable, or crude.
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Old 03-25-2015, 11:06 AM   #194
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Ha! As a former landlord, I could spot these types a mile away. And it didn't take me long to realize I was getting stuck with a problem the parents were unloading. No thank you.
I bet. Actually in this case the kid got the message. He later told me he'd had no plans to move until dad gave him one. His dad had talked with him, he was testing. Later he thanked dad for doing that. Point is every kids different!

It wasn't a problem where his dad rented as it was in a very poor area. Dad paid first couple of months. They were just glad the dad/son wasn't a convicted felon.
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Old 03-25-2015, 11:07 AM   #195
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Needing assistance from others can manifest itself in many ways. In my earlier post I was not thinking about money, I was thinking about health, growing old, and dealing with life's challenges. That's all. ..............
Exactly. It is not likely that most of us will be sharp minded, hale and hearty to the end, then just die in our sleep.
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Old 03-25-2015, 11:12 AM   #196
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I feel that if you ever become financially dependent on your children, you've failed at life.

In addition, I believe that having kids with the expectation that they'll look after you in your old age is incredibly selfish and callous. Ever think the kids might have better things to do than wipe your a**?

There are many reasons to have kids (so I'm told; I never saw the upside personally), but creating a financial safety net should not be one of them.
While it might be fair to say that if you ever become financially dependent on your children that you have failed financially, I would not agree with the notion that you have failed at life.

I'll venture to guess that you didn't grow up on a farm or in rural America or are descendant of recent immigrants. I grew up in rural America and my grandparents on both sides were immigrants to the US. Family (all generations, including children) were/are expected to support each other... middle aged support children and parents, children help out with chores and grandparents, etc.... you get the idea. It is collective in many ways and extends to all siblings including childless aunts and uncles and in-laws too.

Now admittedly, changes in society and being spread across the world add challenges to doing this compared to being in the same geographic area as when I was growing up, but the rights and obligations are still there and we have technology to help us.

I don't think any of us have kids so that we'll have someone to look after us when we are elderly. There may come a day when I need to wipe my mother's a** and while I don't look forward to it I expect that I will do it with little complaint because she is family and that is what we do for family.
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Old 03-25-2015, 12:26 PM   #197
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... because the last thing you want is to have some old people mooching off of you, right?

Best go old school and take them upstate. Find a nice hillside to lay them out on and put it in the hands of the gods.

Oh, and make sure the next generation coming up knows what to do with you when you get old, and your portfolio fails, pension collapses, or the Family Responsibility Act of 2038 vaporizes Social Security.

Folks, think about what it means to participate in a society. You've got to raise the kiddies right so they can eventually be self-supporting, and that might take some tough love. Applying the same 'tough love' approach to someone who's elderly, not capable of self-sustaining employment any more, or otherwise in serious decline doesn't really work.

If we as a society decide to treat our elders as disposable, unless they can buy their way out, expect to see even more effort directed to strip the cash and benefits and discard the disposable husk, farming the elderly as a cash crop to be stripped of assets and disposed of.

As one example of one change in this direction, see the changes in the Social Security system in Mexico, which was privatized in 1997.
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Fund managers charged an average load (a fee taken as a share of account contributions at the time of contribution) of 23 percent and an annual fee on assets under management of 0.63 percent, implying that a 100-peso deposit earning a 5 percent annual real return would only be worth 95.4 pesos after five years. Indeed, five years after the launch of the privatized system, fund managers' annual return on expenditure averaged 39 percent.
Show the kids that tough love. Make sure they can make it in life. But please, make sure they have enough financial education to plan for their old age, and make sure society provides some level of protection from financial sharks to people in their declining years.
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Old 03-25-2015, 12:30 PM   #198
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Fund managers charged an average load (a fee taken as a share of account contributions at the time of contribution) of 23 percent and an annual fee on assets under management of 0.63 percent, implying that a 100-peso deposit earning a 5 percent annual real return would only be worth 95.4 pesos after five years. Indeed, five years after the launch of the privatized system, fund managers' annual return on expenditure averaged 39 percent.
If there is an option to invest my deposit in fund managers, then problem solved!
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Old 03-25-2015, 07:11 PM   #199
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I feel that if you ever become financially dependent on your children, you've failed at life.

In addition, I believe that having kids with the expectation that they'll look after you in your old age is incredibly selfish and callous. Ever think the kids might have better things to do than wipe your a**?

There are many reasons to have kids (so I'm told; I never saw the upside personally), but creating a financial safety net should not be one of them.

In most places in the world the only option parents have is to depend on their children in old age. For most people in the world, there is no pension, no welfare support and they've spent a life of subsistence living. Your point of view is only relevant to developed economies.


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Old 03-26-2015, 08:31 AM   #200
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In most places in the world the only option parents have is to depend on their children in old age. For most people in the world, there is no pension, no welfare support and they've spent a life of subsistence living.
Right. And how's that working out for them?

In my opinion, those countries are either economic disasters (Greece, Spain, India), or sound like miserable places to exist due to cultural and legal facism (China, Saudi Arabia). North America is a utopia compared to virtually every other country in the world. THEY should be emulating US, not the other way around. Binding familial generations together in financial co-dependence seems like a great way to constrain ambition and initiative. You've seen the end result as European socialist nations teeter on the brink of bankruptcy.

What's the point in working my butt off and putting in a bunch of overtime if it's just going to get spent buying diabetes medication for my obese dad who took care of himself neither physically nor financially? Let the government pick up the tab.
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