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Old 04-28-2010, 10:32 AM   #21
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People in high places just can't be too careful. Remember this? Swamp rabbit was lucky Jimmy was armed only with an oar....
And Jimmy was lucky this wasn't the "killer rabbit" from Monty Python and the Holy Grail...

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Old 04-28-2010, 10:41 AM   #22
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I am not a Rick Perry fan at all, but I have to say that I have no problem with what he did in this instance. I suspect that some who don't like it are people who don't like it because they don't like Rick Perry. Of course I am sure there are those who are anti-guns and would be against it on general principle.
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:43 AM   #23
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But not too much gun for a politically-motivated kook who might want to assault him (or worse). There's a reason why the President has Secret Service protection.
I was just taking him at his word, since he said he was carrying it because of snakes. Are you saying I can't trust what a politician says?

It probably is a good idea for him to carry when alone.
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:56 AM   #24
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I am not a Rick Perry fan at all, but I have to say that I have no problem with what he did in this instance. I suspect that some who don't like it are people who don't like it because they don't like Rick Perry. Of course I am sure there are those who are anti-guns and would be against it on general principle.
Then there are people like me who are conservative, have voted for Perry in the past (and might do so again, depending on how my ex-boss Bill White talks), and don't have a problem with people lawfully carrying guns or even doing what Perry did.

The issue I have with Perry is that his rhetoric, and many of his executive decisions, are blatant plays to the conservative voters, as if they were all simpletons who can't tell the difference between decisions made based on a set of beliefs, and "Hey, vote for me! I'm ultra-conservative!

I'm not saying the incident was fictional, or staged, but it just smells like a play toward the demographic that Perry is always chasing. It might be totally legit - who knows. Certainly Perry doesn't mind the publicity it gets him.

If I was walking my wife's dog around the neighborhood and a coyote started stalking the little PITA, I would send him off to Coyote Heaven. Mostly because there is no way in hell I could ever go back home without that freaking Yorkie in the same condition she left in.
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:57 AM   #25
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Note that he charged his weapon - the coyote isn't said to have charged.
"charged his weapon" means loaded. It would have been a real interesting if the coyote charged a weapon. The coyote did "came out of the brush toward his daughter's Labrador retriever"
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:03 AM   #26
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I'm not saying the incident was fictional, or staged, but it just smells like a play toward the demographic that Perry is always chasing. It might be totally legit - who knows. Certainly Perry doesn't mind the publicity it gets him.
But again -- I would think he already has most of that demographic locked up, and the time to play "gun-totin' cowboy" for campaigning would have been in the primary, when that demographic was much more up for grabs. I don't see this swaying many people who are leaning toward Bill White.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:06 AM   #27
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If I was walking my wife's dog around the neighborhood and a coyote started stalking the little PITA, I would send him off to Coyote Heaven. Mostly because there is no way in hell I could ever go back home without that freaking Yorkie in the same condition she left in.
There is a special place in heaven for men who walk their wives' girlie dogs.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:07 AM   #28
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A Texan afraid of snakes? Um, they give me the willys too, but when I see one, I generally just step aside. And I can't imagine any snake not slithering away well in advance of the pounding footsteps of a jogger.

Don't you think a well-aimed rock would have convinced the coyote (not known for their bravery) to run away?

Maybe I am out of touch now with the gun carrying crowd, but I have never heard of anyone (outside of Star Trek) "Charging his weapon".

Put me down as cynical, but I believe that this story is nothing more than Governor Perry polishing his macho image.
I'm OK with him shooting the coyote. But, using a 380 for snakes or any pistol round for a snake would require fast action and accurate shooting. A person could probably get out of the way in all that time. A round loaded with shot would be better.
I'm guessing he needed to say something about why he was carrying a gun.

Also, maybe by snakes; he meant the human kind. Does snakes = bad guy in Texas.

Charging the gun is sometimes called the 'Israeli carry' and some people do it. I do not see the need for it. I don't conceal carry but, if I did I wouldn't do it.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:24 AM   #29
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I don't have any problem with Governor Perry releasing a story that is probably very popular with the NRA crowd in Texas. It is a large constituency, and part of his base.

I don't even have a problem with him blowing away a coyote.

I do have a problem with politicians packing heat. I really have a problem with a politician carrying such a weapon in a popular public space like the Barton Creek Greenbelt (where this most likely took place). On your own ranch, sure.

There are lots of hot-heads out there, and ugly confrontations and incidents are going to happen. I would much prefer that the risk assessment of any potential situation be done by trained professionals than the politician himself. (I don't know who handles the Texas governor's security, the Texas Rangers perhaps?)

As far going out without one's security detail, that is (or should be) a no-no. Yes, it is a PITA, but that bit of personal freedom is one of the things you give up when you become an important political figure.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:39 AM   #30
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I do have a problem with politicians packing heat. I really have a problem with a politician carrying such a weapon in a popular public space like the Barton Creek Greenbelt (where this most likely took place). On your own ranch, sure.
I guess my big question is this: Would an ordinary citizen be charged with a crime for discharging a firearm in that situation and in that location? If so, let the double standards begin because you know he wouldn't be.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:45 AM   #31
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But again -- I would think he already has most of that demographic locked up, and the time to play "gun-totin' cowboy" for campaigning would have been in the primary, when that demographic was much more up for grabs. I don't see this swaying many people who are leaning toward Bill White.
The first week he was Mayor I dared to suggest that one of his honor's ideas needed some tweaking, and got my head chopped off. Not by Bill directly, but it tainted my feelings toward the man just by association. But I do think that I have to be honest and say that he kind of grew on me, just a little - I think he really believes much of what he says and does is the right thing for his constituents. A refreshing behavior for a politician. That said, I probably could never vote for him because he has been a complete weasel on the issue of illegal immigration.

There are probably some other issues we differ on, but his waffling on that one topic was cowardly and solely based on getting votes.

Everybody else may not feel the same way though. So, I think there are some voters out there who might walk across the party line and vote for White, and maybe Perry is just shoring up his base. Which is a smart move considering the voting Demographics in this state - there are a lot of people (like my BiL) who make their decision on elections based on a single issue - the 2nd Amendment. And, as I said, it's the kind of thing Perry does.

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There is a special place in heaven for men who walk their wives' girlie dogs.
I am pretty darn sweet!

Of course I never had much of a choice on the girlie pets. The woman has a way of turning any animal into a girl's pet. Here are before and after pics of my dog that I had before I ever started dating my future wife. From man-eating guard-dog to a child's plaything in less than a year. She had my ferocious manly beast convinced that she was a 60-pound lapdog.

I could buy a man-eating tiger and she would have it trained to roll over to get a belly rub.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:57 AM   #32
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I guess my big question is this: Would an ordinary citizen be charged with a crime for discharging a firearm in that situation and in that location? If so, let the double standards begin because you know he wouldn't be.
Eeek!
I principle I agree with you, but the last thing we need right now is an investigation into the legality of that little non-incident. Let's just let it recede into yesterday's news (while maybe having a little fun with it on the way.)
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:13 PM   #33
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I do have a problem with politicians packing heat. I really have a problem with a politician carrying such a weapon in a popular public space like the Barton Creek Greenbelt (where this most likely took place). On your own ranch, sure.
So to be a politician now you have to give up the rights that all citizens have?

Maybe you are against gay marriage also because a politician might go out in popular public spaces with their partner and that might hurt someone.
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:25 PM   #34
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So to be a politician now you have to give up the rights that all citizens have?

Maybe you are against gay marriage also because a politician might go out in popular public spaces with their partner and that might hurt someone.
Wow. I didn't expect to need my asbestos underwear for that post!
I suppose that I am not as good a writer as I imagine myself. My intended tone was nothing at all like what Dex is perceiving.

And despite the fact that my partner and I have been together for 20 years, I am against gay marriage, although that is an entirely different thread.

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Old 04-28-2010, 12:45 PM   #35
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I guess it's just part of the territory of being a politician or celebrity, but they do give up a lot of their freedom of movement and action by being protected.

I did the security planning for a couple of semi-public events (invited guests, not general public) that involved former-presidents and other less luminaries who were national office holders. When I planned for, and actually conducted, their physical movement from one place to the other, I found that I treated them as an object. The first one I did we made it all the way through the visit and I found myself watching the dude get in his limo and suddenly realizing that I had watched 40-50 people shake his hand or get their picture snapped with him and I had missed out. He wasn't my favorite ex-prez, but I had voted for him once and while I didn't have hero worship going I did respect the guy. On an impulse I turned to the guy in charge of his SS detail and ask if it was allright to shake his hand.

As he was just starting to get in the limo I managed to get a handshake and a smile in exchange for something I mumbled. It was the first time during the months of planning and the hours conducting the operation that I actually saw the man as a person. Up to that point he had just been part of a package who I was responsible for protecting.

And that's not at all unusual. I've been close to enough of these guys backstage so to speak, usually during a movement phase, to say that most of them have sort of a blank expression on their face during the ordeal as if it's something they have to endure as part of the job. I think they know that they're being treated as an object at that moment and it's something they put up with. I popped open a door once and came face to face with an ex who was just sitting there in a golf cart, waiting to be driven to the stage area (it was a stadium). He just looked at me for a second and then turned his head, I reversed course and found a different route, but I remember thinking he looked like he was very disinterested in anything other than his own thoughts. A man who was at peace with being treated like a package that gets moved around.

When it comes to presidents, even former-presidents, I don't think any of them are crazy enough to go too far against what their security handlers advise. They have to realize that the impact on the country would be devastating if something happened to them.

But what about the lesser important office holders like a governor? I'm not sure that Perry is sufficiently important that he has to give up all freedom of choice about his movements. Certainly he should listen to this security detail, but he should get to make choices.

That doesn't necessarily relieve his security detail from still protecting him - or at trying to while at least appearing to respect his wishes.

I do remember once having to provide surreptitious security for the chief executive of a federal law enforcement agency. He flew in commercial with his aide who I guess doubled as his body guard. But the man was adamant that he could travel in this country without a security detail - after all, he carried a gun and badge himself. In fact, he expressly ordered the local office of his agency from having anyone meet him at the airport. I guess he would have been pissed if he had noticed the guys in the Suburban following him.
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Old 04-28-2010, 01:52 PM   #36
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When I read this I figured Perry would win more than a few votes--and maybe stave off those gay rumors about him (the man is just too purty)--by having his gun with him and shooting the coyote. Isn't that basic Texas 101?
But hollowpoint bullets....dang...he plans to do damage if he hits something doesn't he?
To me, Texas has some great laws but then I believe in right-to-carry. What can I say?
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:03 PM   #37
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But hollowpoint bullets....dang...he plans to do damage if he hits something doesn't he?
It is doubtful that the hollowpoints even expanded out of a short barreled 380.

Although hollowpoints get a lot of attention the key ballistic issue is penetration - FBI studies show 12" penetration is the minimum to be effective.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:21 AM   #38
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It is doubtful that the hollowpoints even expanded out of a short barreled 380.

Although hollowpoints get a lot of attention the key ballistic issue is penetration - FBI studies show 12" penetration is the minimum to be effective.

You are saying that you have to be at least a foot away for the hollowpoints to be effective? I can't imagine too many situations where a coyote or a man would be that close when they were shot...not that it couldn't happen...so I assume then that the hollowpoints would shatter whatever they hit? Am I on the right track here about hollowpoints?
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:59 AM   #39
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You are saying that you have to be at least a foot away for the hollowpoints to be effective? I can't imagine too many situations where a coyote or a man would be that close when they were shot...not that it couldn't happen...so I assume then that the hollowpoints would shatter whatever they hit? Am I on the right track here about hollowpoints?
Two different things

The reason for hollowpoints is to expand from the original caliber size, not shatter - it is doubtful that the hollowpoints even expanded out of a short barreled 380.


Read the FBI report about penetration - not distance:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:47 AM   #40
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Interesting link, thanks, Dex.
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