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Old 04-30-2010, 09:01 AM   #41
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Interesting link, thanks, Dex.
You're welcome - there is 380 ammo that has good penetration. I will probably get a 380 when 380 ammo is available - take a look at the Ruger LCP or Diamondback 380 - look like a small Glock.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:13 PM   #42
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You're welcome - there is 380 ammo that has good penetration. I will probably get a 380 when 380 ammo is available - take a look at the Ruger LCP or Diamondback 380 - look like a small Glock.
Is that for defending against Coyotes, or larger varmints that walk on two-legs?
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:02 PM   #43
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and maybe stave off those gay rumors about him
His wife knows and, briefly, some divorce lawyers did. I wonder how much she was offered?

In any case, this was pure machismo. Coyotes don't step to a grown man, especially one that acts hostile. Unless the puppy was off by itself (breaking the leash law!), I seriously doubt a coyote would try to snatch a puppy attached to an adult. As others noted, a rock would have been plenty sufficient.

Defending your livestock is one thing. Shooting a coyote in the distance because it looks at you "wrong" is another.

Now that I think about it, this story sounds completely fictional.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:14 PM   #44
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Is that for defending against Coyotes, or larger varmints that walk on two-legs?
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Old 04-30-2010, 03:09 PM   #45
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While I agree with much of what the author said, I have to partially agree and disagree with what he says about larger caliber weapons being preferred. The part I agree with is that bigger holes do more damage and bleed them out faster, the part I disagree with is that he goes too far in debunking the concept of "stopping power".

If you read page 3 (Tactical Realities) you will see that in a real-life situation you will be lucky to actually hit the person you're shooting at. If you do hit the person, you will be blessed with even more luck if you hit him some place where the wound will do enough damage to bleed him out - and a CNS shot will be a miracle. Which means you will have some rounds striking extremities or body shots in places where it's not going to do the kind of damage you want under the big holes-big damage theory.

But in going too far in debunking the myth, I think he ignores the reality. A larger caliber round traveling at a lower velocity will expend a great deal of energy on its target. It's what the author would call "stopping power" in a derogatory way, but it's what I call "I want to lay down and stop trying to hurt you" power.

The FBI paper relies on Fackler's work extensively, but there are many among his peers who say Fackler was exaggerating, wrong, and a poor scientist. http://arxiv.org/pdf/0803.3053

Simply put, if I know that the odds are against me getting a hit on the CNS core or vital organs, and if I actually hit the target it will likely be on an extremity or a non-deadly torso hit, I still want to accomplish my primary goal - to make the bad guy stop trying to hurt me. A large caliber round at a lower velocity is much more likely to do that. The paper I linked says it much more eloquently, but the way I've thought of it is that a large caliber round to a sold piece of meat is liking hitting someone with a baseball bat. It screws with their nervous system enough that it's like the shock turns all those muscle controlling nerves to "off" or "reset".

The effect is that they lay down and stop trying to hurt me - at least for a moment or two.

All of which means that if I'm holding a 380 in my hand and confronted with a target that I more than likely won't get a kill shot on, I may seriously wonder how hard I can throw that pistol at him.
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:52 PM   #46
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Simply put, if I know that the odds are against me getting a hit on the CNS core or vital organs, and if I actually hit the target it will likely be on an extremity or a non-deadly torso hit, I still want to accomplish my primary goal - to make the bad guy stop trying to hurt me. A large caliber round at a lower velocity is much more likely to do that. The paper I linked says it much more eloquently, but the way I've thought of it is that a large caliber round to a sold piece of meat is liking hitting someone with a baseball bat. It screws with their nervous system enough that it's like the shock turns all those muscle controlling nerves to "off" or "reset".

The effect is that they lay down and stop trying to hurt me - at least for a moment or two.

All of which means that if I'm holding a 380 in my hand and confronted with a target that I more than likely won't get a kill shot on, I may seriously wonder how hard I can throw that pistol at him.
On page 15 - I think the FBI agrees with you - "Given adequate penetration..."

Selection of a carry gun is a compromise - add up the weight of a 45 1911, fully loaded and the holster (or even a Glock 26) and compare that to a fully loaded LCP and holster. I would be more likely to carry the LCP on a daily basis (or the Diamonback 380)

First rule when in a gun fight - have a gun
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:22 PM   #47
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I used to have a neighbor who was a retired SS agent. He used to tell a story about a time that Lyndon Johnson was returning to TX and there was a rattlesnake on the path wherever they were walking. According to the ex-SS guy, one of the protective detail tried to shoot the rattler, fired 4 times, and missed each time. President Johnson took one of his aide's umbrella and beat the snake to death himself. No guarantee it's true, but it sounds a lot like Johnson.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Gov. Zoolander (I like that! ). But as far as carrying a gun, it's legal (open carry) without a permit, and legal (concealed) with a permit. So what's the big deal? If you don't like guns, don't carry one. I personally would probably have tried scaring off the coyote (Rock or whatever) first, but I definitely would have protected the dog.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:43 PM   #48
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Thank God he wasn't running with Cheyney.

I agree that in a tight situation even if you're a cop you may not be able to shoot straight. So when I was in my paranoid period(I bought 4 guns in this period-- Mossberg Pump 12 ga, S&W Stainless 6 inch barrel 367mag, S&W Stainless 6 inch 22ca, and 22 ca rifle Remington with scope), I went into my gun store looking for a laser sight. I figured that with the sight all I would have to do was get that red dot on the target. But I didn't tell them what I wanted it for. Most people go there for hunting. The owner's wife was there and she looked at me and said with a straight face, "You know, you can hunt animals in PA with that." And both of them burst out laughing.

They knew what I was planning on hunting.

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Old 04-30-2010, 07:49 PM   #49
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Selection of a carry gun is a compromise - add up the weight of a 45 1911, fully loaded and the holster (or even a Glock 26) and compare that to a fully loaded LCP and holster. I would be more likely to carry the LCP on a daily basis (or the Diamonback 380)

First rule when in a gun fight - have a gun
I agree on the compromise part - that's why I reluctantly stopped carrying a Colt Gold Cup and went with a Glock 27. I guess I just came toward the compromise from the opposite direction.

Having been there when a couple of different people have been shot with a 380 and witnessing the results, I think I've compromised more than enough by going from a 45 to a 40. When you have to fight a guy whose been shot 4 times (1 in the teeth, 2 in the torso and 1 in the arm), I'm thinking that somebody didn't bring enough gun to the gunfight.

As for the "given sufficient penetration", it's still not in agreement with what I'm referring to. Prime example from real life is a guy who had been in three gunfights with the police in one night and in the third one he finally caught a round (38 special +p) that, according to the docs, caused 40% paralysis in his left leg. He still was running and gunning until he caught a 45 round in the upper right thigh - hit nothing but meat - that rendered him completely combat ineffective. Other than some subcutaneous bleeding, and of course the holes, it wasn't much of a bleeder either - I don't think it hit much in the way of blood vessels. But it was like somebody hit him with a baseball bat and he just stopped running and fell. Dude was on five different drugs with adrenaline pumping and that big round took all the fight out of him.

I'm not criticizing you're choice of firearm...well, not in a personal way. It's just that frankly I don't know why anyone would carry a .380 for self-defense purposes. Not that I'm a gun expert or aficionado, I look at the darn things like a carpenter looks at his hammer - it's just a tool made to do a job. Everybody has their preferences.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:49 PM   #50
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I'm not criticizing you're choice of firearm...well, not in a personal way. It's just that frankly I don't know why anyone would carry a .380 for self-defense purposes. Not that I'm a gun expert or aficionado, I look at the darn things like a carpenter looks at his hammer - it's just a tool made to do a job. Everybody has their preferences.
I have a Kimber Ultra Carry II - 45 and Glock 26. I just think I would more likely to carry the 380. Now if I was going to carry a BoB I would go with the 26
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:49 AM   #51
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You have no idea how thrilled I will be when I get out of this never-will-have-right-to-carry State of Illinois....and I still kept my NRA membership going out of protest here.

Again, I still think this article about Perry was to "butch" him up in the public's view. Bush shooting a coyote, yeah...but Perry...not so much.
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:51 AM   #52
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You have no idea how thrilled I will be when I get out of this never-will-have-right-to-carry State of Illinois....and I still kept my NRA membership going out of protest here.

Again, I still think this article about Perry was to "butch" him up in the public's view. Bush shooting a coyote, yeah...but Perry...not so much.
Don't forget the pepper spray - you always want options.
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:54 AM   #53
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I used to have a neighbor who was a retired SS agent. He used to tell a story about a time that Lyndon Johnson was returning to TX and there was a rattlesnake on the path wherever they were walking. According to the ex-SS guy, one of the protective detail tried to shoot the rattler, fired 4 times, and missed each time. President Johnson took one of his aide's umbrella and beat the snake to death himself. No guarantee it's true, but it sounds a lot like Johnson.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Gov. Zoolander (I like that! ). But as far as carrying a gun, it's legal (open carry) without a permit, and legal (concealed) with a permit. So what's the big deal? If you don't like guns, don't carry one. I personally would probably have tried scaring off the coyote (Rock or whatever) first, but I definitely would have protected the dog.
He probably did, so I would believe Johnson would do that.
I saw my Grandma--hair always in a perfect bun, dresses long with long sleeves and high neck and bonnet wearing, cause she didn't want that Southern sun on her beating down--take a hoe and cut a rattlesnake to death by herself when I was a kid. Lady or not, she took care of business. That's they way they do it when you are raised on a Southern farm or ranch. Yeeee-hawwww!
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:55 AM   #54
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Again, I still think this article about Perry was to "butch" him up in the public's view. Bush shooting a coyote, yeah...but Perry...not so much.
Yeah, but even Zoolander realizes that sometimes sacrifices have to be made - as long as your hair stays perfect. He is a servant of the people and it's for the kids and whatnot.
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Derek Zoolander: So join now, 'cause at the Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too, we teach you that there's more to life than just being really, really, really good looking. Right kids?
Well Governor, your points will go up with manly men (and you're hurting there), the NRA moms will love it, so will the dog-lovers, and the soccer-moms will dig the hair visual we'll work into it!

Somebody should have told him to carry a manly gun and ditch that stupid laser sight. The aide who picked out his shooting gear must watch too much television.

Edit to add: Dig this photo, his hair stylist must have been off on range day!

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Old 05-01-2010, 10:57 AM   #55
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Don't forget the pepper spray - you always want options.
Good thought. You know, I always thought pepper spray was a girlie-thing until I met two truckers--big, macho, burly guys--who put off two hijackers who tried to bust open their cab to the truck with a huge bottle of pepper spray. Pretty cool.
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:59 AM   #56
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Yeah, but even Zoolander realizes that sometimes sacrifices have to be made - as long as your hair stays perfect. He is a servant of the people and it's for the kids and whatnot.Well Governor, your points will go up with manly men (and you're hurting there), the NRA moms will love it, so will the dog-lovers, and the soccer-moms will dig the hair visual we'll work into it!

Somebody should have told him to carry a manly gun and ditch that stupid laser sight. The aide who picked out his shooting gear must watch too much television.

Well, this particular NRA mom isn't buying that Perry is so butch he grabbed his pistola and shot the varmits. If it smells funny, it usually is funny. Does this really pass the sniff test, Texans?


Leonidas: Where's the photo?
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:11 AM   #57
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Well, this particular NRA mom isn't buying that Perry is so butch he grabbed his pistola and shot the varmits. If it smells funny, it usually is funny. Does this really pass the sniff test, Texans?


Leonidas: Where's the photo?
I'm seeing it - try refresh and see if that works. If not I'll download it to my machine and then upload the file from here.

And here's your Tex-Mex word of the day: I wouldn't call that little thing Rick-o used a pistola, it's more of a cuete (kweh-tay) - a small firecracker.
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:22 AM   #58
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We have pepper spray because we camp in black-bear country in central Arizona, and though the odds are slim of seeing one and even slimmer (like lottery slim) of being attacked by one it feels good to have it when you hear the mysterious branch breaking near the tent in the middle of the night.

As for this coyote I definitely smell BS as far as needing the gun, even if that coyote did try something aggressive a loud yell and wave of arms would do the trick. They are a hell of a lot smaller than most people think.
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:37 AM   #59
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Good thought. You know, I always thought pepper spray was a girlie-thing until I met two truckers--big, macho, burly guys--who put off two hijackers who tried to bust open their cab to the truck with a huge bottle of pepper spray. Pretty cool.
Here's the deal - some guy is threatening you but he doesn't have a gun or knife - if you only have a gun and shoot him; you will have many legal issues. Pepper spray gives you a non lethal option.

That large bottle might have been bear spray.
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:04 PM   #60
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They are a hell of a lot smaller than most people think.
Would this be the four people in the US who have never seen one?

Ha
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