Decline of the Middle Class

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by Independent I've got a relative who is a (very poorly paid) lawyer. He works in a tiny firm that used to specialize in mortgage problems, but that morphed into primarily bankruptcies. He has a white board with a list of names and dates. The dates are sheriff's sales, and he needs to file the bankruptcy before the sale so the people can stay in their homes. I believe that in his state, you don't lose your home or your car in bankruptcy. This lady may have done better sitting down with a lawyer. (But that doesn't mean her situation isn't extremely tough.)

Not sure what state he is in, but from what I know that does not apply to a home loan... IOW, if you have a lien on your house they can take it from you even in BK.... it does take a little more work, but it can be done....

[haha]

These people are really up against it. I read the statements about how the welfare system just humiliates them rather than helping. True I am sure for middle class people, but people who are used to that life, maybe a few genrations of it, can work the system very well. To be plugged into networks that share scams and workarounds and fiddles is very useful, as is being a member of a politically favored group.

I think sometimes welfare workers experience a bit of pleasant schadenfreud at the spectacle of a former Kiwanees member living in a car and doing some dumpster diving.

Ha

[ItDontMeanAThing]

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Originally Posted by aaronc879 There must be people who live in an RV only with no permanent residence. How do they register their vehicle?

Florida allows people who have never set foot in the state to qualify as residents. With a Florida mailing address one can vote, file state taxes, register vehicles and get a driver's license. IIRC one has to appear in person to get the first driver's license but can renew via the web or mail after that. I'm a Florida resident who's only connection with the state is I've passed through it on vacation.

[obgyn65]

Sorry to read this, Aaron. Take care.

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Originally Posted by aaronc879 I'm not as well off as most on here but, at age 32, I could live off my savings for nearly 10 years if I stay in my paid off condo. If I sell my condo and live in my car I could get by until social security kicks in by living off my savings and giving plasma twice a week. I would probably prefer to work another 20 years and keep my condo but I may not have a choice.

[aaronc879]

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Originally Posted by ItDontMeanAThing Florida allows people who have never set foot in the state to qualify as residents. With a Florida mailing address one can vote, file state taxes, register vehicles and get a driver's license. IIRC one has to appear in person to get the first driver's license but can renew via the web or mail after that. I'm a Florida resident who's only connection with the state is I've passed through it on vacation.

How do you have a Florida mailing address if you've never lived there?

[ItDontMeanAThing]

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Originally Posted by aaronc879 How do you have a Florida mailing address if you've never lived there?

A mail forwarding service located in Florida: Mail Forwarding Services at St Brendan's Isle

[NW-Bound]

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Originally Posted by tmm99 I wonder what made those people who were ready to hire her change their minds about hiring her when they found out she was homeless? She would steal? She is nuts? Her homelessness would rub off on them?

There is a stigma that comes with being homeless. And for practical reasons, people are afraid of having contacts with the homeless. Bluntly, the question in people's mind is about how they take care of body hygiene.

I need to say here that living in a car is much better than sleeping in a bush or on a doorstep. There is a man who lived in a van while pursuing a Master degree at Duke University. An interesting character, he did it as an experiment. He detailed how he managed to camp stealthily with his van parked on campus, how he cooked and ate in his van, and maintained personal hygiene by using the school facilities. Nobody suspected anything until he leaked his story to the media.

Near his graduation date, the school found out that this guy was one of their students, but he had attained some notoriety for achieving his goal of obtaining a graduate degree with absolutely no student loans, nor help from his family which he refused. So, they did not want to risk bad publicity for forcing him out, but made him sign a note promising to remove his van immediately following his graduation date.

His blog used to be called "Spartan Student". It has been renamed but you can still find it by searching. Being written by a student of literature and also an adventurer (he spent time working and camping in Alaska), his blog is good reading to me.

And then, in my search for RV adventure blogs, I also found one of a woman who traveled the US in a Prius. I am sure there are many more who live in cars by choice and not by necessity.

So, living in a car is not the same as being homeless, or at least does not have to be.

[Sarah in SC]

I read the article posted, thanks very much for sharing it. And iI have tremendous compassion for these folks and their problems. I wish the solutions available were better and more effective.

[eridanus]

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Originally Posted by aaronc879 I've been unemployed for 11 months despite constant searching. I'm even gotten turned down for $8/hr jobs in production. I have 11 years experience in production. It's very difficult for many people to find ANY job in this market. I'm not even in one of the hardest hit areas so it's bad almost everywhere.

I was laid off during the dot com bomb and it was the same way. Who's going to hire an engineer for an $8/hr customer support position? They know you'll bolt the instant the economy turns. I was even turned down for a job at a fast-food place (the "back-up plan" of many who have never been there) because my previous experience was software for semiconductors ("overqualified").

My advice, Aaron, is that there's no use stressing about something you can't change. You've saved for this eventuality. Enjoy it while you can.

[ziggy29]

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Originally Posted by eridanus I was laid off during the dot com bomb and it was the same way. Who's going to hire an engineer for an $8/hr customer support position? They know you'll bolt the instant the economy turns.

THis concerns me a bit. Not because I ever plan to take an $8 customer support job, but because I do see us at a point within 2-3 years where I can leave my high stress, high-BS corporate grind and do something a little more enjoyable, a little more mindless and a lot less stressful. If things go according our household plan, I wouldn't even much care if it was $10-12 an hour with no benefits (and bonus points if I could do it part-time).

The point is, by the time I'm 50 I expect to be able to chuck this good paying but stressful and soul-sucking corporate gig and do something else. The problem is that the "something else" would be something I'd be considered "grossly overqualified" for, based on education, experience and salary history. How could I convince them "no, no, I don't WANT those high-pay, high-stress gigs any more? I *want* to downshift."

[Amethyst]

Gee, I'd think almost any employer would appreciate that you have a track record of working hard.

Suspect employers know the difference between 1) "I'm a highly qualified [insert profession] who's in between jobs, and I'm willing to take your $8 an hour thing until I find something better" and 2) "I retired from my high-stress [profession], and now I just want the chance to do a good job at something that's interesting but I don't have to take it home with me."

Not that I have any jobs to offer, but if I did, I'd be interested in hiring example No. 2.

Amethyst

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Originally Posted by ziggy29 THis concerns me a bit. Not because I ever plan to take an $8 customer support job, but because I do see us at a point within 2-3 years where I can leave my high stress, high-BS corporate grind and do something a little more enjoyable, a little more mindless and a lot less stressful. If things go according our household plan, I wouldn't even much care if it was $10-12 an hour with no benefits (and bonus points if I could do it part-time). The point is, by the time I'm 50 I expect to be able to chuck this good paying but stressful and soul-sucking corporate gig and do something else. The problem is that the "something else" would be something I'd be considered "grossly overqualified" for, based on education, experience and salary history. How could I convince them "no, no, I don't WANT those high-pay, high-stress gigs any more? I *want* to downshift."

[eytonxav]

Unfortunately, the 50+ age discrimination started before the great recession, but it does make it even tougher now if you have a few gray hairs. Its still pretty amazing to me that companies that offer these low $ or part time opportunities would not want an older more reliable employee

[BLS53]

I think there's another factor with being overqualified for these low wage jobs. The person who does the interviewing, is often a supervisor or low level manager, who has less of an education and background than you do. They often appear intimidated, and would prefer to hire someone that's more like them.

These jobs are often a poor fit for someone looking for long term retirement supplementary income. I personally wouldn't want to work for someone that's 30 years old, with a GED. I would if I had to, but I don't.

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by Amethyst Gee, I'd think almost any employer would appreciate that you have a track record of working hard. Suspect employers know the difference between 1) "I'm a highly qualified [insert profession] who's in between jobs, and I'm willing to take your $8 an hour thing until I find something better" and 2) "I retired from my high-stress [profession], and now I just want the chance to do a good job at something that's interesting but I don't have to take it home with me."

(2) may be what you say, but what the employer hears is "Lacks commitment and is just job-cruising between vacations"...

I think hiring managers have heard the feedback over & over again from the company's department heads: "Why are you sending us all these geezers? We want people who'll be around for a few years after we train them, and who can have enough time for a real career here. We don't need some old dog who keeps telling us how they did it at UsetaCorp during the last millennium..."

I'm not personally complaining, but I read it a lot on Linkedin's military veterans groups where they're describing the difference between being a 20-something leaving after your first obligation, versus being a 50-something retiring after a 30-year career.

[ziggy29]

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Originally Posted by Nords I'm not personally complaining, but I read it a lot on Linkedin's military veterans groups where they're describing the difference between being a 20-something leaving after your first obligation, versus being a 50-something retiring after a 30-year career.

Even in defense and aerospace? When I worked in that industry the place was loaded with middle management that was retired military. Of course that was in the late 1980s into the 1990s, so things may have changed somewhat.

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by BLS53 I think there's another factor with being overqualified for these low wage jobs. The person who does the interviewing, is often a supervisor or low level manager, who has less of an education and background than you do. They often appear intimidated, and would prefer to hire someone that's more like them. These jobs are often a poor fit for someone looking for long term retirement supplementary income. I personally wouldn't want to work for someone that's 30 years old, with a GED. I would if I had to, but I don't.

Originally, when I was retiring, my plan was to get one of those type of jobs. As it got to that time to try, the romantic notion of that type of PT job thankfully faded away before I tried. Instead, I am staying in my field part time with better pay and hours. When this gig ends, I am just plain done.

[REWahoo]

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Originally Posted by Mulligan Originally, when I was retiring, my plan was to get one of those type of jobs. As it got to that time to try, the romantic notion of that type of PT job thankfully faded away before I tried. Instead, I am staying in my field part time with better pay and hours. When this gig ends, I am just plain done.

+1

A couple of years after retiring I actually went to apply for a $10/hr part-time job. I wasn't bored with retirement at all and I didn't really need the small paycheck the job would generate, but I thought the health insurance benefits would be worth it.

I was handed an application form and sat down in a room with several other job seekers, including an older couple and a woman in her 30's with two small children. I looked at them and thought "These folks look like they really need this job. I don't. What the heck am I doing?"

I tossed my application form in the trash as I was walking out.

[Nords]

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Originally Posted by ziggy29 Even in defense and aerospace? When I worked in that industry the place was loaded with middle management that was retired military. Of course that was in the late 1980s into the 1990s, so things may have changed somewhat.

You're seeing the ones who get hired, but on Linkedin I'm reading about the ones who don't get hired. It'd be interesting to know which group is bigger.

One word describes today's defense & aerospace industries: "drawdown"...

[target2019]

Where I work (defense) employment is down 18% or more from the peak. Profits are up, NAV is up. Still, most are depressed, as the reality is that the trend will continue. If 5% cuts continue each year, it gets closer and closer to you. And your workload increases as you are asked to do more with less.

[Midpack]

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Originally Posted by Amethyst Gee, I'd think almost any employer would appreciate that you have a track record of working hard. Suspect employers know the difference between 1) "I'm a highly qualified [insert profession] who's in between jobs, and I'm willing to take your $8 an hour thing until I find something better" and 2) "I retired from my high-stress [profession], and now I just want the chance to do a good job at something that's interesting but I don't have to take it home with me." Not that I have any jobs to offer, but if I did, I'd be interested in hiring example No. 2. Amethyst

I expect to test the theory one day, but I am sure it will be hard to sell a prospective employer that I'm what you describe in #2. I never fell for it when I was a hiring manager. I always wanted the best candidate available, and it was usually not the senior applicant for lots of reasons...

Karma?