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Old 12-16-2007, 10:22 PM   #21
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Christian not Deist.

The "problem" with Deism is that there is no clear basis of what is right or wrong. By looking at something created you cannot necessarily discern the creator's intent. If you look at a stick of dynamite it doesn't tell you whether the "creator" (inventor) of the dynamite intended it to be used for purposes such as building a dam or for blowing up men, women, and children.

If something is important for you to know, such as what is right or wrong, the only way for you to know the creator's perspective is for him to tell you. This brings you back to the importance of a "revealed" faith.
A Quote from the original link, pertainign to revealed religion:


Revelation, or revealed religion, is defined in Webster's New World Dictionary as: "God's disclosure to man of Himself." This should read, "God's alleged disclosure to man of himself." For unless God reveals to each of us individually that a particular religion is truly His disclosure to us of Himself, then, by believing that religion, we are not taking His word for it, but we are instead putting our belief in the person or institution telling us it is so. Heresay.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:26 PM   #22
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I'm sure Hobbes gave this more thought than I have, but if we lived in a Big Box (i.e., a closed system), does it do us any good to ask "how did the box get here?" or "what's outside the box?" or "are there other boxes?"

Fun questions, but unanswerable, and any answer you'd like to make up is pretty useless.
One good thing about traditional religions is that they to some degree immunize one against oddball secular obsessions.

Remember "I am the Lord thy God,
Thou shalt not have false gods before me."

Anyone tempted to say B.S on this should first have a look at The Decalogue, by Krzyztof Kieslowski. Possibly the most profound movie ever made.

Ha
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:28 PM   #23
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Good post, thefed. I've read that some Deists believe(d) that, while it is impossible to know about the afterlife, that it might exist. And, that if it existed and if God chose to reward some people, that he might choose to reward those who had best used the gift of rational thought He had provided, or those who had done the most to live a good life and to help their fellow man as best they could. To me, this kind of God is more fair, loving, and worthy of praise (though he would not seek it) than a God who rewards those with blind faith in the "right" story (of the hundreds of stories available).
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:29 PM   #24
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Fun questions, but unanswerable, and any answer you'd like to make up is pretty useless.
AND SAMCLEMS ABOVE POST WHICH POSTED AS I TYPE THIS BELOW


This reminds me of another favorite quote
I trouble not myself about the manner of future existence. I content myself with believing, even to positive conviction, that the power that gave me existence is able to continue it, in any form and manner he pleases, either with or without this body; and it appears more probable to me that I shall continue to exist hereafter than that I should have had existence, as I now have, before that existence began.
Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, Part I, Recapitulation
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:30 PM   #25
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One good thing about traditional religions is that they to some degree immunize one against oddball secular obsessions.

Remember "I am the Lord thy God,
Thou shalt not have false gods before me."

Anyone tempted to say B.S on this should first have a look at The Decalogue, by Krzyztof Kieslowski. Possibly the most profound movie ever made.

Ha
Right On.

If there was no GOD then why is it that people spend so much time trying to disapprove his existence?

GOD BLESS
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:34 PM   #26
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One good thing about traditional religions is that they to some degree immunize one against oddball secular obsessions.
One good thing about secularism is it that it, to some degree, immunizes one against oddball religious obsessions.

- Ever seen an elderly person spending 6 hours a day with various prayer cards, beads, and devotionals?

- Ever seen an atheist fly a jumbo jet into a building for the sake of atheism?
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:46 PM   #27
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One good thing about traditional religions is that they to some degree immunize one against oddball secular obsessions.

Remember "I am the Lord thy God,
Thou shalt not have false gods before me."

Anyone tempted to say B.S on this should first have a look at The Decalogue, by Krzyztof Kieslowski. Possibly the most profound movie ever made.
Filmmaker Stanley Kubrick described it as the only masterpiece he could name in his lifetime

Wow, endorsed by both Ha and Kubrick. Good enough for me! I'll order it on Amazon for xmas!

FWIW, I don't discount the idea that religions are useful. Given the amazing cultural persistence, consistency, and adoption of relgion, there is clearly something important there. In fact, I could even be convinced that religion is an evolutionary adaptation that man needs to survive.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:50 PM   #28
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Deism has several attractive features. Most importantly, it recognizes the value of reason.

The problem, from my perspective, is that Deism presumes the existence of a god. Why? If you believe that rational observations and deductions based on observation of the natural world are important, then why start with a supposition that, ultimately, even if the rational, observable evidence indicates otherwise, that there must be a creator? Seems self-contradictory.

Deism made a lot more sense in a time when we didn't have natural explanations for much of the world around us.

Agreed. But the great thing about Deism (at least modern deism) is the promotion of free-thinking. The premise that there is an all-mighty, omnipotent GOD is rejected in deism. A deist recognizes that there is/was something above and beyond mankind's comprehension that began and/or perpetuates life and nature as we know it. We cannot comprehend it...obviously...or this conversation wouldn't be happening. This realization is GOD in a deist sense. Different for everybody of course. And it's different for every deist because deists use their OWN reasons to come upon conclusions.

Reminds me of a quote by Thomas Jefferson, which I paraphrase in the end :
"I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the universe, in its parts, general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces; the structure of the Earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere; animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles; insects, mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth; the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe, that there is in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a Fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their Preserver and Regulator, while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regeneration into new and other forms. We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power, to maintain the universe in its course and order."

The world we live in is SO complex, and we obviously don't undertand all of its beginnings, laws, causes and effects....therefore I believe that some incomprehensible power has affected these things. Until I can use my ability to show REASON to the contrary.




Nobody KNOWS how it happened (creation,evolution, etc)...and recognizing that we DONT KNOW and
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:53 PM   #29
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Right On.

If there was no GOD then why is it that people spend so much time trying to disapprove his existence?

GOD BLESS
I'm not sure I follow?

Soo....there must be a lock ness monster because people try to disprove its existence?

And Big Foot?

And UFO's?

And Aliens?


Lots of time spent disproving those....so they must exist.


Can you elaborate?
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:57 PM   #30
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I just want to say that I think the forum members here are AWESOME for being able to discuss religious philosophy without getting into crazy rants and getting the thread locked....very civil! i thrive on these kinds of philospohical discussions, and appreciate everyone's cooperation! i know a few boards that i'd never consider posting this on!!
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:58 PM   #31
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All these posts about how there is no God are similar to all those posts about why none of us are at all guilty or embarrassed about our roles as consumers who not not produce.

As Oly would say, "Ya shure, you betcha!"

Ha
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:17 PM   #32
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Thanks Ha! I had no idea all those music videos were available on Youtube.

Just spent an enjoyable 30 mins listening to/watching Iris Dement solo and performing with James Taylor, Emmy Lou Harris, John Prine. Just excellent.

Guess I need to go explore the internet a little more!

Thanks again!
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:35 PM   #33
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A Quote from the original link, pertainign to revealed religion:


Revelation, or revealed religion, is defined in Webster's New World &nbspictionary as: "God's disclosure to man of Himself." This should read, "God's alleged disclosure to man of himself." For unless God reveals to each of us individually that a particular religion is truly His disclosure to us of Himself, then, by believing that religion, we are not taking His word for it, but we are instead putting our belief in the person or institution telling us it is so. Heresay.
Interesting. So unless communication comes to you in the form you find acceptable..you ignore it? ....How's that working for you?

Response to spouse: "Sorry honey, can't talk, I'm only taking emails at the moment."

Or..ignore the phone call from the boss as only face to face communication is currently being accepted?

Hmmm. Good luck with that!
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Old 12-17-2007, 12:02 AM   #34
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Interesting. So unless communication comes to you in the form you find acceptable..you ignore it? ....How's that working for you?

Response to spouse: "Sorry honey, can't talk, I'm only taking emails at the moment."

Or..ignore the phone call from the boss as only face to face communication is currently being accepted?

Hmmm. Good luck with that!
'


You missed the point of the quote totally...your rebuttal seems aimed in the wrong direction? (but i must answer your question. YES!! And it's going well. when the wife talks to me in an unacceptable manner...i enable my selective hearing. When an email comes to me in an unacceptable form, ie junk mail, i ignore it. when a phone call comes from an unacceptable source or at an unacceptable time, i do ignore it. )

Back on topic .... Read this quote :

For example, if God revealed something to me, that would be a divine revelation to me. If I then told someone else what God told me it would be mere hearsay to the person I tell. If that person believed what I said, they would not be putting their trust in God, but in me, believing what I told them was actually true.

Revealed Religion: An organized system of belief in and worship of God based on the belief that God communicated/communicates with certain individual founders/members of the particular revealed religion. As mentioned above, by believing in any of the revealed religions a believer is not putting their trust in God, but in the person/people making the claim of receiving the divine revelation.


How can you argue with that ??
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Old 12-17-2007, 12:10 AM   #35
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And before I goto sleep, check out this quote from Einstein...very deistic!


"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."
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Old 12-17-2007, 12:12 AM   #36
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I've come to find myself in philosophical agreement with singer-song writer Iris Dement on this subject. She says it like this in her song "Let the Mystery Be." So, I'll just let you folks fight it out...... I think I'll just let the mystery be......

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they they all came from
everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go
when the whole thing's done
but no one knows for certain
and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be
Nice quote. Probably lots of us can agree this is the Great Mystery.
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Old 12-17-2007, 12:19 AM   #37
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Not to get to pedagogical, but I did not say there was evidence that there was no creator.........


BTW, after I posted I re-edited my post to get rid of that link to the other site, as I figured it will cause a lot of angst. If you agree, you can remove it from the quoted portion of the text in your post. Otherwise--well, I'm no longer totally responsible if folks go there and have a fit (and the responsibility for spreading heresy will be on YOUR everlasting soul. )

Thanks for clarifying your points. Your use of the term "pedagogical---were (are) you an educator/professor?

And I did delete your link from my last response quoting you. I don't want any (more) demerits attaching to my soul.
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Old 12-17-2007, 12:41 AM   #38
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[quote=samclem;589424]
- There's nothing in the observable universe that requires a creator.[quote]

Not to get to pedagogical, but I did not say there was evidence that there was no creator.


To go back to a few of your earlier points, you have made both statements above.

Do I take it then you are agnostic? You find no evidence in the observable universe for a creator, but you also have no evidence there is no creator.

And a second question, about the intangible force/attitude called "love": would you consider "love" to be a kind of evidence different than "evidence in the observable universe" or the "natural world"?
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Old 12-17-2007, 06:40 AM   #39
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'


You missed the point of the quote totally...your rebuttal seems aimed in the wrong direction? (but i must answer your question. YES!! And it's going well. when the wife talks to me in an unacceptable manner...i enable my selective hearing. When an email comes to me in an unacceptable form, ie junk mail, i ignore it. when a phone call comes from an unacceptable source or at an unacceptable time, i do ignore it. )

Back on topic .... Read this quote :

For example, if God revealed something to me, that would be a divine revelation to me. If I then told someone else what God told me it would be mere hearsay to the person I tell. If that person believed what I said, they would not be putting their trust in God, but in me, believing what I told them was actually true.

Revealed Religion: An organized system of belief in and worship of God based on the belief that God communicated/communicates with certain individual founders/members of the particular revealed religion. As mentioned above, by believing in any of the revealed religions a believer is not putting their trust in God, but in the person/people making the claim of receiving the divine revelation.


How can you argue with that ??
No, you missed my point. What you are saying is that unless revelation comes to you in a way you deem as acceptable, i.e. direct and only direct, the revelation is invalid, unimportant and can be ignored.

The Bible says " In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.." Hebrews 1:1

Your response is "Sorry God, you didn't talk to me direct so you wasted your time."

Well, I don't see anywhere, even by Deist standards, where God has said how he will hand out revelation nor any documentation that the Deists have been appointed the divine revelation communication standards committee.

But suppose he followed your premise of direct only, how many of the world would give him a Scrooge-like welcome?

"I don't believe in you!" said Scrooge.

"Why do you doubt your senses?"

"I've never seen a spirit before. Why should I see one now? You could easily be an undigested bit of beef, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato." Scrooge chuckled. "I warrant there's more of gravy than grave about you!"

From the parable of Lazarus:

"Abraham replied, "They have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them."

'No father Abraham," he said, "but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent."

He said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." Luke 16:29-31
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Old 12-17-2007, 08:28 AM   #40
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Fed, as you explore, you might enjoy reading Spinoza and about pandeistic philosophies.
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