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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 12:16 PM   #21
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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coerced career choice can be viewed as a "benefit."
OK here's an example for you. When I went to college I was required to take two semesters of something called "Humanities." It basically covered all of the arts, music, architecture, painting, sculpture etc. I would never have taken such a "useless" course if it were not forced on me as a requirement for graduation.

The humanities course that I took opened up an appreciation of how many things that we encountered daily are really quite artistic (i.e. architecture, city planning, public art, music, general creativity in others). I still have an appreciation of these things and they all spring from the humanities courses that I was required to take back in the day. Prior to that I had very little exposure to anything artistic and gave it little value. I now understand what value such things bring to we humans.
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 12:16 PM   #22
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

Brewer,
You know you ARE inviting a knock-down-drag out.

Some folks feel the same way about a national "mandatory public service" requirement, that it would expose youth to areas of public service that they would not otherwise consider, and that they might stick with it as a career, or as long-term volunteers.

Personally, I'm not a believer in this idea. I think these schemes ignore the opportunity costs to both the individual and society of this public service. Just because a person is young does not mean his/her time is valueless.

I think the most interesting idea is the one proposed by Robert Heinlein in "Starship Troopers." No one is forced into any kind of compulsory servitude, nor can anyone be refused if they want to serve. (There'd be something for anyone, regardless of handicap or ability). There'd be room for COs in service, just as there is when we had the draft. After serving, you've earned the right to vote in elections. No service, no vote.

There--that ought to stir things up.

(edited to fix typos)
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 12:23 PM   #23
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

Eh, I don't feel like taking the bait today. Rangel is just playing politics and the proposal will go nowhere. If you guys want to join up, have at it.
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 12:25 PM   #24
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
I think the most interesting idea is the one proposed by Robert Heinlein in "Starship Troopers." No one is forced into any kind of compuilsory servitude, nor can anyone be refused if they want to serve. (there'd be something for anyone, regardless of handicap or ability). There'd be rom for COs in service, just as there is when we had the draft. After serving, you've earned the right to vote in elections. No service, no vote.

There--that ought to stir things up.
I thikn they do stuff like that in Greece........the owner of our local greenhouse/floral shop is from Greece. When he turned 18, they had a MANDATORY service requirement of 2 years for ALL males.

He said it was the best experience he ever had, and it opened his eyes to the world..............
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 12:39 PM   #25
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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No service, no vote.
Not sure that this would work here as few young adults currently take the time to vote now as it is. How about "No service, no drivers license", that might work.
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 12:50 PM   #26
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
I just can't comprehend how a coerced career choise can be viewed as a "benefit."
I can respond to how it applied in my situation. Had it not been for the draft, I would have never considered joining the military and doing some of the things I had the opportunity to accomplish. Wasn't within my scope of what I thought I could achieve in life. The draft forced me to make choices I wouldn't have otherwise made, exposed me to opportunities I probably wouldn't have run across, and gave me the self-confidence to try things I would never have attempted.

It worked out fine for me, and I think the taxpayers got their money's worth on what they spent for my training and upkeep (we won the cold war, remember ). That said, I'm not a supporter of the draft and think bringing it back would do more harm than good for all the reasons that have been expressed in this and other threads on the subject.

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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 01:01 PM   #27
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Rangel is just playing politics and the proposal will go nowhere.
While Rangel's proposal will likely go nowhere, he is not just playing politics. His proposal reflects his true feelings and he means exactly what he is saying.
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 01:11 PM   #28
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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Originally Posted by youbet
While Rangel's proposal will likely go nowhere, he is not just playing politics. His proposal reflects his true feelings and he means exactly what he is saying.
Where's that Kool Aid graphic when you need it?
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 01:12 PM   #29
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

What I think Rangel has in mind is the fact that many of those who propose war have no personal/family risk, no skin in the game so to speak.

During the Viet War lots of kids attended college to avoid the draft. As a result youth who couldn't aford college were pulled in first. Families with contancts somehow managed to keep their kids out of harm's way. What's "fair"? When war is the game at hand is any life more valuable than another?

A draft is a PITA for the military because they have so many who are unwilling. I would like our leaders to be similarly unwilling.
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 01:28 PM   #30
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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Originally Posted by Brat
What I think Rangel has in mind...........
I think Rangel is pretty much a straight shooter. What he has in mind is what he is saying. No need for paraphrasing, rewording, interpreting, spinning, etc.
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 05:04 PM   #31
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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Originally Posted by youbet
While Rangel's proposal will likely go nowhere, he is not just playing politics. His proposal reflects his true feelings and he means exactly what he is saying.
I am not absolutely positive about this but didn't Rangel vote against a draft bill just a little while ago? I think it was something along the lines of him saying how only the poor are in the service now (not true) and how we should have a draft. The Republicans then said OK here's a bill to re-instate the draft, calling his "bluff.". Then Rangel (and almost everyone else) voted against it.

At least that's the way I remember it.

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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 05:08 PM   #32
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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Originally Posted by Brat
A draft is a PITA for the military because they have so many who are unwilling. I would like our leaders to be similarly unwilling.
How about sending those leaders themselves to the front lines of any combat for which they vote? Surely if it is a just and necessary cause, they won't mind. Worked for Alexander the Great.
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 06:08 PM   #33
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet
While Rangel's proposal will likely go nowhere, he is not just playing politics. His proposal reflects his true feelings and he means exactly what he is saying.
If your IQ is south of 50, it makes very little difference about
"true feelings" or "means exactly what he is saying". The man has the
brainpower of a radish. Let's face facts.

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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 06:47 PM   #34
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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He has said the U.S. fighting force is comprised disproportionately of people from low-income families and minorities.
It seems that Mr. Rangel is misinformed. According to a Heritage Foundation report:

"The estimate for mean household income of recruits increased every year from 2003 through 2005. The poorest areas continue to be underrep*resented, while middle-class areas are overrepre*sented. Although the richest income brackets are underrepresented, the difference between the recruit and population proportions for these brack*ets is less than 0.25 percent. Overall, the distribu*tion for recruit household incomes is very similar to that of the youth population."

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Nat...y/cda06-09.cfm
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 07:24 PM   #35
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

Right. And the next canard that normally crops up is the claim that blacks suffer a disproportionately high number of casualties in America's wars. This is not true, but has become such a mantra among some segments of the population that it is just accepted as fact.

- In the Vietnam war, blacks accounted for 12.5% of combat casualties. At that time, blacks constituted 13.5% of the draft-age population.

- While I could not find firm numbers for the Iraq conflict, a Washington Post report http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082500940.html indicates black troops suffered a casualty rate 30-40% lower than the rate experienced by non-blacks. Blacks are being recruited at a rate approximately commensurate with their %age of the overall population. (Conversely, the casualty rate for Hipanics was higher than for non-Hispanics). The lower casulty rate for blacks is generally attributed to their higher representation in combat service support roles and lower representation in the combat arms.

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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 08:28 PM   #36
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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Originally Posted by samclem
Right. And the next canard that normally crops up is the claim that blacks suffer a disproportionately high number of casualties in America's wars. This is not true, but has become such a mantra among some segments of the population that it is just accepted as fact.

- In the Vietnam war, blacks accounted for 12.5% of combat casualties. At that time, blacks constituted 13.5% of the draft-age population.

- While I could not find firm numbers for the Iraq conflict, a Washington Post report http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082500940.html indicates black troops suffered a casualty rate 30-40% lower than the rate experienced by non-blacks. Blacks are being recruited at a rate approximately commensurate with their %age of the overall population. (Conversely, the casualty rate for Hipanics was higher than for non-Hispanics). The lower casulty rate for blacks is generally attributed to their higher representation in combat service support roles and lower representation in the combat arms.

I wrote 4 different responses to this. So non-PC that even I didn't have the guts to post them. That's a first. See you all tomorrow.

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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 08:29 PM   #37
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
So explain. Not looking for a knock-out, drag-down. I just can't comprehend how a coerced career choise can be viewed as a "benefit."
I wasn't coerced but I was certainly suckered by the irresistible challenge.

There's no way to do a double-blind controlled experiment, but I graduated from high school lacking in most of the social skills & graces and with a strong interest in alcohol & drugs. The military helped me with one area and eventually discouraged the second while equipping me with the skills & confidence to get to ER. Judging from my classmates' performance, a lot of them would have benefited from a military environment as well... although some of them found a substitute in a different federally-funded system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
The lower casulty rate for blacks is generally attributed to their higher representation in combat service support roles and lower representation in the combat arms.
Maybe they listen better during training, pay more attention to their environment during operations, and exhibit more common sense than combat veterans of other races!

I'd love to see a modern DoD study on genders & races in the various combat arms/logistics branches.

I'd also like to see a record of divorce rates broken down by service & warfare community, and I'd like to know why submariners seem to father more daughters than sons.

Finally I'd like to see the submarine force's officers become more than an overwhelming majority of male WASP Republicans. Failure to evolve has pretty much doomed them to extinction, yet so far we only seem to be making progress on the third category. I'd like to know why BUPERS doesn't seem to be able to figure out a solution.

But I doubt that we'll ever get complete answers to any of those questions.
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 08:45 PM   #38
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

Many folks who have looked at the issue say that black youth tend to enlist as a means to get skills and practical experience that will be useful after they leave the service. White youth tend to enlist as a means to get life experiences ("adventure") that they cannot get other ways. So, a black enlistee is likely to seek out a career field that he/she knows will transfer well to the outside world--logistics, an admin field, transportation, etc. A white kid is more likely to go into the infantry, armor, etc where, historically, the odds of being killed are higher.

That's an interesting observation about blacks in the submarine force. I know they are also under-represented in the USAF pilot community and in Army Special Ops/Navy SEALS. I don't think this is due to institutional bias, I think it is far more likely the result of self-selection factors. At least I hope so.

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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 08:50 PM   #39
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?

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Originally Posted by samclem
That's an interesting observation about blacks in the submarine force. I know they are also under-represented in the USAF pilot community and in Army Special Ops/Navy SEALS. I don't think this is due to institutional bias, I think it is far more likely the result of self-selection factors. At least I hope so.
I don't have the numbers (if indeed they're public) but anecdotally I'd say that minorities are over-represented among submarine enlisted and almost non-existent in the wardroom.

I'm afraid that it's difficult to support the "self-selection factors". However I watched one black officer resign at the end of his obligation because he was tired of the crappy leadership he'd been subjected to, and he was extremely heavily recruited by the assignment officers to the point where the rest of the office WASPs were beginning to feel a little miffed... so maybe it's not institutional bias, but it's certainly not because BUPERS appears to have a clue either.
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Re: did someone say 'draft'?
Old 11-20-2006, 09:53 PM   #40
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