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Old 12-12-2013, 07:50 AM   #41
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I deal in more shades of gray than that, unfortunately. I have had enough of a day job and am ready to move on with life. However, I may need to generate some income in the next 5 years (far less than I earn now and could do it any number of ways) and I do believe in the mission of the organization, more fool me. So I am ready to just walk out the door and not look back, but I also would be amenable to helping out in what Ibelieve to be importanta work if I can do so on my terms.
How would you feel if they don't ask you to stay? I can't comment on your situation, but employees are considered replaceable these days. You wouldn't be the first retiree to find their organization didn't consider the employee nearly as importantant as the employee thought.
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:24 AM   #42
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How would you feel if they don't ask you to stay? I can't comment on your situation, but employees are considered replaceable these days. You wouldn't be the first retiree to find their organization didn't consider the employee nearly as importantant as the employee thought.
A counter would be a complication I do not need, so a simple goodbye would be fine.
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:31 PM   #43
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Oddly I made my own counteroffer. I had decided to retire and then chickened out. My boss had occassionally jokingly asked me "not to leave him" a couple fo times over the weeks prior.

When the stress of retiring (imagine that !) got to me and I knew I didn't want to go I called him and said "I'm going to make your dreams come true - if I can telecommute then I can probably hang on another two years". We both got what we wanted (at the time).
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:38 PM   #44
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A counter would be a complication I do not need, so a simple goodbye would be fine.
Then why the question, at all?

You don't need "our" (e.g. this forum) input to just say goodbye.

I agree with LoneAspen - "...(snip)...as a manager I would never extend one. I don't believe a counteroffer fixes the reason a person is looking."

In (many) years past, in a role of a manger, I felt that a person gave their notice because they felt that a change was warranted and the current situation did not fit their needs.

My simple answer? Good luck to you, and your future endevors. If you feel you must leave, so be it.

We (being the organization) will continue on...

IMHO, you are having second thoughts, at a late stage in the game. That's not a problem. Maybe you should think of why you are making this decision.

I know that you have "jumped" to a new job last year. I don't know your previous employment history.

However (regardless of today's action to seek out a new position, over the long term employment of the past), I question why you are leaving.

Because your current employeer wants you to travel? Heck (hel*) that happened to my previous employer - bought out two times by two different EuroCorps over a decade. That's not what I signed up for .

Even though I was based in the US, I spent a week (incuding both weekends before/after in travel) to meet with my manager/teams in another country.

I often arose at 3am to attend 8am (Eurotime) meetings (videoconfernece) to discuss projects, during my weeks back in the US.

Did I screw up my home life? Yes Did it screw up my sleeping? Yes. Was it preferable (in pay/benefits - that allowed me to retire earlier than planned)? Absolutely!

Sometimes sacrifice is required, and our current situation may not be perfect. However, to meet a goal, sometimes you just have to tough it out to meet your end goal.

Are you tough enough

Sorry to sound negative, but I've been there.

FWIW...
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:45 PM   #45
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Yep no one is irreplaceable. One of my biggest opportunities came when a brilliant senior guy was transferred to a different area. Sure I didn't know what he did, but I learned. My manager rewarded me very well.
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:50 PM   #46
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Then why the question, at all?

You don't need "our" (e.g. this forum) input to just say goodbye.

I agree with LoneAspen - "...(snip)...as a manager I would never extend one. I don't believe a counteroffer fixes the reason a person is looking."

In (many) years past, in a role of a manger, I felt that a person gave their notice because they felt that a change was warranted and the current situation did not fit their needs.

My simple answer? Good luck to you, and your future endevors. If you feel you must leave, so be it.

We (being the organization) will continue on...
You are right, of course. A day outside in the sunshine (and bracing temps) chasing tree rats helped me get some equilibrium. Sitting in a cube with nothing to do but stew does not help me think clearly.
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Old 12-12-2013, 12:57 PM   #47
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That would have been totally unfair to my employer. IIRC your field is highly specialized, so 2 weeks seems awfully short...but you know your situation better than anyone else. Hope it works out to the satisfaction of you and your employer.
I couldn't disagree more. I w*rk in human resources and I've seen literally endless cases where the employer was unfair to the employee, regardless of the field. Employers plan "reductions in force" (i.e., firing you) months in advance with meticulous detail, and no matter what you're told, they do not care about you. If push came to shove, you would be out the door with no recourse.

I strongly recommend giving no more than two weeks, as I've seen cases where an individual gave more than that time and were treated unfairly. Midpack, you yourself stated in an earlier post on this thread that after your employer realized they couldn't convince you to stay, you were on the receiving end of "polite bitterness" as you were on your way out the door. Why would anyone who is about to FIRE put up with that?

Employees today must realize that the pact between capital and labor is long broken, that employment is nothing more than a business transaction, and that your loyalty is first and foremost to yourself. I wouldn't worry about what's "unfair" to your employer, as I can assure you your employer is quite capable of looking out for itself.
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:32 PM   #48
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I couldn't disagree more. I w*rk in human resources and I've seen literally endless cases where the employer was unfair to the employee, regardless of the field. Employers plan "reductions in force" (i.e., firing you) months in advance with meticulous detail, and no matter what you're told, they do not care about you. If push came to shove, you would be out the door with no recourse.

I strongly recommend giving no more than two weeks, as I've seen cases where an individual gave more than that time and were treated unfairly. Midpack, you yourself stated in an earlier post on this thread that after your employer realized they couldn't convince you to stay, you were on the receiving end of "polite bitterness" as you were on your way out the door. Why would anyone who is about to FIRE put up with that?

Employees today must realize that the pact between capital and labor is long broken, that employment is nothing more than a business transaction, and that your loyalty is first and foremost to yourself. I wouldn't worry about what's "unfair" to your employer, as I can assure you your employer is quite capable of looking out for itself.
Agree 100%, a sweet wonderful 72 year old gave 6 months notice to be effective 1/15/13. In December she was told her last day would be the end of December 2012. They didn't give her a reason. Had she been employed 1 day in 2013, she would have received another 5% of her salary in her retirement account, for her 2012 contributions to Megacorp.

You have to look out for yourself, screwing over a 72 year old worker, should be criminal. But they knew she was too timid to make an issue.

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Old 12-12-2013, 11:24 PM   #49
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As I read this thread I reflect on how hard it is to leave and not be associated with any institution for comfort and money.

It took a long time and a good stock market to help me feel in control after the institutional cord was cut ... forever!

I could go on philosophizing ...
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Old 12-13-2013, 01:00 AM   #50
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Agree 100%, a sweet wonderful 72 year old gave 6 months notice to be effective 1/15/13. In December she was told her last day would be the end of December 2012. They didn't give her a reason. Had she been employed 1 day in 2013, she would have received another 5% of her salary in her retirement account, for her 2012 contributions to Megacorp.
Another confirmation to NEVER give notice before some big bonus or vesting date. Corporations are capable of taking direct action to withhold rewards that might have been earned but for the letter of the law, and often do so. We just had a woman quit and give notice that would have carried her over the date the company distributes an annual bonus. She naively assumed she would get or could negotiate a pro-rated bonus for working 11 1/2 months of the year. Despite her excellent work this year and previously for several years, her allocation in the bonus pool was reduced to zero.
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Old 12-13-2013, 08:11 AM   #51
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Another confirmation to NEVER give notice before some big bonus or vesting date. Corporations are capable of taking direct action to withhold rewards that might have been earned but for the letter of the law, and often do so. We just had a woman quit and give notice that would have carried her over the date the company distributes an annual bonus. She naively assumed she would get or could negotiate a pro-rated bonus for working 11 1/2 months of the year. Despite her excellent work this year and previously for several years, her allocation in the bonus pool was reduced to zero.
My company's policy explicitly states that someone who retires in January is eligible for a previous year bonus payout in March but that's the wording--eligible--the company can give you $00. I believe most companies only pay out if you are employed on the date of the payout. There are some exceptions, but let's face it, if a manager is stretched to allot the piddling monies they get at year end for their team, they or their boss may find it easier to take from the departing person and give to the remaining bodies.
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Old 12-13-2013, 08:35 AM   #52
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Another confirmation to NEVER give notice before some big bonus or vesting date. Corporations are capable of taking direct action to withhold rewards that might have been earned but for the letter of the law, and often do so. We just had a woman quit and give notice that would have carried her over the date the company distributes an annual bonus. She naively assumed she would get or could negotiate a pro-rated bonus for working 11 1/2 months of the year. Despite her excellent work this year and previously for several years, her allocation in the bonus pool was reduced to zero.
I was always mindful of this when I considering various resignation (ER) dates near the end of my working years. There were two dates in particular slightly before which I did not want to announce my leave. One was around April 1 when our annual bonuses were given out. The other was around January 1 when we received new shares of valuable company stock. (Of course, with these two dates only 3 months apart, if I could make it to Jan 1 I should try to hang in there for April 1.)

When I did leave at the end of October 2008 I was not concerned about the Jan 1 date any more because I had become ineligible for receiving new shares of the company stock (I was no longer working enough hours per year to qualify). So there was no point in suffering through another winter just to get a bonus. Also, the stock price was expected to decline so I'd be facing decrease in what I could cash out.

The flip side of having the company try to shortchange a lame-duck employee was something my former company tried to do many years ago when they made some big changes (read: reductions) to their retiree benefits. Under their existing rules, an employee had to announce an official retirement 30 days in advance. But when they announced these rule changes late on November 30th, effective January 1st the following year, several employees who were considering retiring wanted to get their retirement notices in before the rule changes went into effect. But because these changes were announced so late in the day, the HR department had closed up shop for the day (it was a Friday) and that forced those would-be retirees to give their notices the following Monday, resulting in their being bound by the newer, less favorable rules. They raised holy hell (and probably threatened lawsuits) and the company backed down, allowing them to retire with the old rules in effect a little longer.
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Old 12-13-2013, 04:42 PM   #53
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A tiny (and I do mean tiny) piece of me envies Brewer. It would have been (just a little bit) nice if I could have contemplated Megacorp asking me to stay. I suppose that's my ego talking.

Instead, their "counter offer" was "don't let the screen door hit you on your way out." That's exactly what I expected and it made it easier to leave the few friends I still had left.

Now I look at what has happened to my old w*rk place and I don't even recognize it. Things have only gotten worse (much worse). I left at the right time (maybe a bit late, actually). In any case, the only thing that would have enticed me to consider staying would have been to let me choose the w*rk i would be doing. Fat chance!

Brewer, I think you said it well, yourself. "No thanks." Say it politely or say it sarcastically, but say it! Just my 2 cents worth, so YMMV.
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Old 12-13-2013, 11:23 PM   #54
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When I retired I was certain they were happy to see an old timer go. The replaced me with a younger person.
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Old 12-14-2013, 07:56 AM   #55
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A tiny (and I do mean tiny) piece of me envies Brewer. It would have been (just a little bit) nice if I could have contemplated Megacorp asking me to stay. I suppose that's my ego talking.

...

Brewer, I think you said it well, yourself. "No thanks." Say it politely or say it sarcastically, but say it! Just my 2 cents worth, so YMMV.
When I turned in my 2 weeks notice almost 2 years ago when I received an offer from another firm, the office head simply said "Just don't say or do anything until I have a talk with corporate!". At that point, I was frustrated, because they slashed salaries 15% in 2008-2012 without any bonuses or raises, and I was looking at a decent salary bump (from $63k-$80k), and my opinion was "if they can't appreciate my talents, I'll tell them to go to hell if they think they can flash a few dollars at me as I'm walking out the door".

They countered with $85k.

Not being one to cut off my nose to spite my face (and because I didn't hate the work environment I was in), I ended up accepting. And 12 months later, when I had another offer from a different firm (again, unsolicited like the previous year's offer) for actually lower pay (but from an apparent more stable company with more backlog), they asked me what it would take to keep me there. I asked for another bump.

I realize it can be extremely frustrating to see a company only value you when they have no choice....but in the end, money talks, and I realize that the average company won't go out of their way to shower you with money unless they absolutely have to.

So my advice, Brewer, is simply ask yourself "what would it take for me to change my view of leaving permanently? What conditions would I be crazy to say "no" to?" Obviously, you have to be realistic....but as you have vaguely hinted at, I don't think you're looking at a $300k annual draw with a 2% WR. There's nothing wrong with doing a part-time gig, or just a few extra months for a little extra splurge pile o cash to kickoff ER or to make a huge buffer for future years if the wife's side business doesn't evolve like you think it might.
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Old 12-14-2013, 08:23 AM   #56
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Agree 100%, a sweet wonderful 72 year old gave 6 months notice to be effective 1/15/13. In December she was told her last day would be the end of December 2012. They didn't give her a reason. Had she been employed 1 day in 2013, she would have received another 5% of her salary in her retirement account, for her 2012 contributions to Megacorp. You have to look out for yourself, screwing over a 72 year old worker, should be criminal. But they knew she was too timid to make an issue. MRG
That's criminal. My experience was the opposite. Just before I retired my employer awarded me the best bonus I ever got. I didn't deserve it but the company had done very well and everyone got a big bonus. There was absolutely no attemp to screw me over as I retired. In my position prior to retirement I also made sure this never happened to my subordinates as they retired. I recall giving a very generous option award to an exec just a few months before an agreed retirement date. He told me that really impressed him.
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:30 PM   #57
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That's criminal. My experience was the opposite. Just before I retired my employer awarded me the best bonus I ever got. I didn't deserve it but the company had done very well and everyone got a big bonus. There was absolutely no attemp to screw me over as I retired. In my position prior to retirement I also made sure this never happened to my subordinates as they retired. I recall giving a very generous option award to an exec just a few months before an agreed retirement date. He told me that really impressed him.
I'm SO glad my banking fees are being well used.......
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:21 PM   #58
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They gave me what I had asked for to begin with, but which they said no to originally. By that time I had signed the paperwork and was mentally prepared to pull the plug, so I said "Thanks but no thanks!"
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Old 12-14-2013, 04:46 PM   #59
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Back in the early 90s I was in a decent paying but crummy Megacorp job. I started looking around and found another crummy job in another Mega, but with more money and much closer to home. When I told my boss she and her boss got together and made me a counteroffer. There was no more money, but they offered me a transfer to another group where I could work in newly emerging technology, something called "the internet". So I stayed, got into security and forensics, and had a blast for the next ten years until a merger reshuffled me under people I couldn't stand. Luckily I was able to find something else for a couple of years until I was able to retire with medical coverage. When I did leave, I ended up coming back as a consultant for about 6 months, mostly to help out my group last boss, who I like.

I guess my point is, if there's a counteroffer and it would make you happy, think about it. If it would just extend the unhappiness, walk on.

Good luck, whatever happens.
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Old 12-14-2013, 05:10 PM   #60
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I'm SO glad my banking fees are being well used.......
I think good HR relations are indeed a good management practice. Do you think you would be better served as a customer if the banks treated their employees poorly?
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