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Did you say offshoring?
Old 03-30-2017, 04:12 PM   #1
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Did you say offshoring?

We were in the meeting when they said it. "we will be hiring 3 developers in Mumbai.... Two associates and a VP." There are rare times in life when it pays to be cozying up to retirement - this is one of those moments. (It also pays to have a sufficient pile to retire but that is always true.) My colleague spoke frankly with the boss.. "you've tried this before and one of these times your going to get it right.."

I am a developer, I work in what is now a friendly little team of 4 including me. Our work is primarily projects that last about 90 days from begging to end. Specification are minimal because we know the business far better than the staff. One colleague has 20 years in the business and the other 7. My gift is blazing new trails because I can be persuasive (truthfully I just don't take no for an answer) we are not busy all the time. We really don't need three new people.. they don't really use our products in India.

1 "The big boss has a number she needs to hit"
2 "We will just give them the easy stuff."

I am often perplexed just how to handle when someone delivers a load of BS to you - I mean with a straight face. "I see" seems to do it for me. I think it conveys that your bs ing me but I'm too smart to let you know what I'm thinking.

Colleague 1 is has lots of experience and 4 kids. He is a good fellow but he is also not as good on paper as the rest of us. I worry for him. Colleague 2 has more diverse experience and a better pedigree - she'll be fine. Colleague 3 is an awesome worker and is nearer my age then the rest and has one in college next fall. So colleagues 1 & 3 have the potential for an offshoring tragedy.

If they were to let me go tomorrow I'd get nearly a years severance. Can someone show me the way to the axe room.
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Did you say offshoring?
Old 03-31-2017, 07:36 AM   #2
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Did you say offshoring?

It poses some interesting questions ... like do you train your replacement?
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:07 AM   #3
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It poses some interesting questions ... like do you train your replacement?
I went through this a few years back, I did train the replacement but kept the most important secrets to myself. In other words, I show him how to run everything on a perfect world but not how to make sense when the equipment is not working properly.
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:22 AM   #4
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I am often perplexed just how to handle when someone delivers a load of BS to you
? Who is handing you BS? It sounds straight - they plan on replacing your team with these programmers managers from India.

If your boss hits the numbers in the short term, that might be all he/she needs. You may not like it, but where is the BS?

How are these programmers in India going to gain experience like you have, if they aren't given a chance?

-ERD50
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:22 AM   #5
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Offshoring started in my company about 15 years ago. I trained developers in India 3 different times to take over my work. Some of the offshoring was followed by layoffs, but even then, fewer people in the US lost their jobs than gained jobs in India. Other times, the motivation really was to free up resources in the US for the more interesting and challenging work. And we did eventually reach a point of equilibrium as salaries in India and China rose along with the demand for their engineers.

The lesson I learned from the experience is that in addition to being a strong performer, versatility is key to survival in such an environment. If you only know how to do one thing, and someone else can do it cheaper, you're the first to get the axe.
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:27 AM   #6
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It poses some interesting questions ... like do you train your replacement?
Not interesting, simple. If that is what they pay you to do, then you do it. Isn't that your contract with them? Wouldn't it be unethical to take their money and not do what they ask to the best of your ability?

When they pay you a dollar, that dollar is worth 100 cents, right? Shouldn't you give 100% as well?

Or give them 2 weeks notice.

-ERD50
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:16 AM   #7
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Megacorp's probably moved half of the development to other places in the world. We had zero success until they finally put boots on the ground in both organizations. It's a pretty big commitment, of course if you have 1000 developers everything is big.

It was a bit frustrating attempting to send poorly done specifications to a place where they had no idea what the business did. It wasn't fair to either team everyone was frustrated by the process.
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:19 AM   #8
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Not interesting, simple. If that is what they pay you to do, then you do it. Isn't that your contract with them? Wouldn't it be unethical to take their money and not do what they ask to the best of your ability?

When they pay you a dollar, that dollar is worth 100 cents, right? Shouldn't you give 100% as well?

Or give them 2 weeks notice.

-ERD50
There is doing the letter of the contract, and there is REALLY doing it properly. RIP is not suggesting building in trap doors and booby traps, I presume, so this is really the set of alternatives.
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:08 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by rayinpenn View Post
We were in the meeting when they said it. "we will be hiring 3 developers in Mumbai.... Two associates and a VP." There are rare times in life when it pays to be cozying up to retirement - this is one of those moments. (It also pays to have a sufficient pile to retire but that is always true.) My colleague spoke frankly with the boss.. "you've tried this before and one of these times your going to get it right.."

I am a developer, I work in what is now a friendly little team of 4 including me. Our work is primarily projects that last about 90 days from begging to end. Specification are minimal because we know the business far better than the staff. One colleague has 20 years in the business and the other 7. My gift is blazing new trails because I can be persuasive (truthfully I just don't take no for an answer) we are not busy all the time. We really don't need three new people.. they don't really use our products in India.

1 "The big boss has a number she needs to hit"
2 "We will just give them the easy stuff."

I am often perplexed just how to handle when someone delivers a load of BS to you - I mean with a straight face. "I see" seems to do it for me. I think it conveys that your bs ing me but I'm too smart to let you know what I'm thinking.

Colleague 1 is has lots of experience and 4 kids. He is a good fellow but he is also not as good on paper as the rest of us. I worry for him. Colleague 2 has more diverse experience and a better pedigree - she'll be fine. Colleague 3 is an awesome worker and is nearer my age then the rest and has one in college next fall. So colleagues 1 & 3 have the potential for an offshoring tragedy.

If they were to let me go tomorrow I'd get nearly a years severance. Can someone show me the way to the axe room.
In 2014 your introductory post said you were age 59 and ready to retire but the firm had you in "golden handcuffs". Now that you are 62 and ticked off with them why not simply take your severance payout and leave.
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Did you say offshoring?
Old 03-31-2017, 11:35 AM   #10
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Did you say offshoring?

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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
In 2014 your introductory post said you were age 59 and ready to retire but the firm had you in "golden handcuffs". Now that you are 62 and ticked off with them why not simply take your severance payout and leave.

Quite so and I do plan on retiring - I was thinking July and I did say in my opening paragraph I was good to be cozying up to retirement.
This is all an intellectual exercise for me but not for the colleagues...
Oldest of two graduates at the end of the month and has job..yeah!
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:49 AM   #11
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? Who is handing you BS? It sounds straight - they plan on replacing your team with these programmers managers from India.



If your boss hits the numbers in the short term, that might be all he/she needs. You may not like it, but where is the BS?



How are these programmers in India going to gain experience like you have, if they aren't given a chance?



-ERD50

What bs?
Their telling us they are keeping us for the tuff stuff

How are these programmers in India going to gain experience?
You kidding right? Im sorry but I care more about my American colleagues than some Indian programmers I've never met.

There is an economic war underway like it or not but we aren't fighting. American employees are guaranteed benefits and there's OSHA and it raises the price of an American worker. Those benefits aren't given elsewhere...
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:15 PM   #12
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How are these programmers in India going to gain experience like you have, if they aren't given a chance?
What?
Seriously?
Why do I care if they gain experience or not?
I DON't CARE whether they do gain experience or not.
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:44 PM   #13
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This happened to my wife's group and she became the sole manager of the India staff in the US. Kind of a clusterf*ck of a corporate fail (took 3-4 of 'em guys to replace one of us 'Mericans) but job security for her here. Job security at a time she was really really hoping to get let go and score a fat severance packaged (would have been 30+ weeks, maybe more).

The numbers were surprising - $15,000+/yr to pay the guys in India (which I think is their unloaded salary rates and doesn't include their contractor's mark up+profit) vs. $60-70k all-in (loaded salary rate+benefits) for a US-based staffer (we're cheap in Raleigh). But when you're hiring 3-4 of em to replace one of us, it's just barely saving any money BEFORE considering transition costs and additional management/oversight of the outsourcing contract. Quality of work dropped off a cliff (clients complained; expansion plans reversed and the new goal was to dump some clients and keep the remaining ones happy). Not sure how it turned out since DW left over a year ago.

The guys in India were generally nice though. And most were hard-working, unlike some US coworkers of hers.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:10 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by rayinpenn View Post
What bs?
Their telling us they are keeping us for the tuff stuff

How are these programmers in India going to gain experience?
You kidding right? Im sorry but I care more about my American colleagues than some Indian programmers I've never met.

There is an economic war underway like it or not but we aren't fighting. American employees are guaranteed benefits and there's OSHA and it raises the price of an American worker. Those benefits aren't given elsewhere...
That wasn't clear from your post who was saying what.

But if they are telling you upfront, they aren't bs'ing you, so I still don't get it. Or are you saying the situation is 'BS'? I alwayss took someone 'bs-ing' you meant they were lying about things.

see below for more.

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What?
Seriously?
Why do I care if they gain experience or not?
I DON't CARE whether they do gain experience or not.
To both:

Fine, you are free to care for who you want. I see no reason to care for my co-workers any more/less than some poor guy/gal in India trying to make their life better. They are probably in worse shape than your co-workers, and would benefit more from the job.

In the later years of my career, I was on conference calls with peers from China and other places. They were bright and knew how to get a job done in their environment. And I realized they were probably paid 1/5th what I was.

I can't think of any reason the company should pay me 5x to do the job they can do. And why would I feel as if I had any right to deprive them of their livelihood? I guess I'm just an equal opportunity kind of guy.

And BTW, my 3 children seem to be doing well, they have jobs that aren't easily outsourced, lots of direct human intervention. You gotta adapt.

-ERD50
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:30 PM   #15
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I can't think of any reason the company should pay me 5x to do the job they can do. And why would I feel as if I had any right to deprive them of their livelihood? I guess I'm just an equal opportunity kind of guy.
The company can choose to pay me 5x or not.
Obviously many American companies are choosing to not pay an American 5x.
Fine.
And you do realize that COL in USA is 5x, right?

It is not my responsibility to see that someone in India has a livelihood or not. That is their government's problem/responsibility.
Not mine.

And who is not adapting?
Every single programming language I know is self-taught.
No employer spent precious time or money to train me.
I trained myself.
Yet, at age 50+ I am deemed "too old" and/or "too expensive".

As for your 20-something children wait until they hit 50.

I hate fellow Americans who have this look-down-their-nose at others.
Your statement "You gotta adapt" reeks of it.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:45 PM   #16
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......... I see no reason to care for my co-workers any more/less than some poor guy/gal in India trying to make their life better. ..........-ERD50
I bet you were well liked at your old j*b.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:54 PM   #17
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... It is not my responsibility to see that someone in India has a livelihood or not. That is their government's problem/responsibility.
Not mine. ...
I don't think it's anyone's responsibility. The responsibility the company has is to be successful. Buy what you need (including labor) at the best value you can find, just like we all do with the $ we spend. I have to compete with the market if I want to be considered.


Quote:
The company can choose to pay me 5x or not.
Obviously many American companies are choosing to not pay an American 5x.
Fine.
And you do realize that COL in USA is 5x, right?
That's not the company's problem. Will you pay me 5x for the same product if I tell you I pay high rent for my warehouse, so my product is'worth it'? No, the high rent is my problem, you get to choose the product that serves your needs at the best price.


Quote:
I hate fellow Americans who have this look-down-their-nose at others.
Your statement "You gotta adapt" reeks of it.
How am I looking down my nose at anyone? I'm just stating facts. I might turn that around, and say you are looking down your nose at the poor people in these other countries who are trying to improve their live, which are far less comfy than ours.

What would you tell the buggy whip manufacturer back in the day? Would you be serving them to comfort them and tell them they don't have to adapt, don't worry, people will still want buggy whips for their Model T's and Model A's? No, better to tell them maybe they should look into teaming up with the car manufacturers to offer the luxury of leather seats in their cars. Might be a bigger, better market for them?

-ERD50
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:56 PM   #18
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I bet you were well liked at your old j*b.
They knew what the score was, this is all in ref to the job market, not personal feelings. It was reality, not about 'liking' anyone or not.

-ERD50
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Old 03-31-2017, 02:01 PM   #19
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I don't think it's anyone's responsibility. The responsibility the company has is to be successful. Buy what you need (including labor) at the best value you can find, just like we all do with the $ we spend. I have to compete with the market if I want to be considered.
Then they can go train those workers themselves.
Because the companies want a trained work staff for 5x less.
They are not comparing apples to apples.

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That's not the company's problem. Will you pay me 5x for the same product if I tell you I pay high rent for my warehouse, so my product is'worth it'? No, the high rent is my problem, you get to choose the product that serves your needs at the best price.
I will pay more for a made-in-USA product. And yes, 5x. I just did for some towels.


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How am I looking down my nose at anyone? I'm just stating facts. I might turn that around, and say you are looking down your nose at the poor people in these other countries who are trying to improve their live, which are far less comfy than ours.
"poor" people?
LOL.
Again not my concern.
I am not looking down my nose at anyone.
If they are not capable of doing the job, then that is what the company is getting for paying them less.

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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
What would you tell the buggy whip manufacturer back in the day? Would you be serving them to comfort them and tell them they don't have to adapt, don't worry, people will still want buggy whips for their Model T's and Model A's? No, better to tell them maybe they should look into teaming up with the car manufacturers to offer the luxury of leather seats in their cars. Might be a bigger, better market for them?

-ERD50
As I wrote, who isn't adapting. Your knee-jerk reaction is that Americans aren't.
Maybe some aren't. But some are. Very condescending attitude.
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Old 03-31-2017, 02:10 PM   #20
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This happened to my wife's group and she became the sole manager of the India staff in the US. Kind of a clusterf*ck of a corporate fail (took 3-4 of 'em guys to replace one of us 'Mericans) but job security for her here. Job security at a time she was really really hoping to get let go and score a fat severance packaged (would have been 30+ weeks, maybe more).

The numbers were surprising - $15,000+/yr to pay the guys in India (which I think is their unloaded salary rates and doesn't include their contractor's mark up+profit) vs. $60-70k all-in (loaded salary rate+benefits) for a US-based staffer (we're cheap in Raleigh). But when you're hiring 3-4 of em to replace one of us, it's just barely saving any money BEFORE considering transition costs and additional management/oversight of the outsourcing contract. Quality of work dropped off a cliff (clients complained; expansion plans reversed and the new goal was to dump some clients and keep the remaining ones happy). Not sure how it turned out since DW left over a year ago.

The guys in India were generally nice though. And most were hard-working, unlike some US coworkers of hers.
My experience with outsourcing engineering to India, when at Megacorp, was similar. And in the beginning, the US counterpart spends so much time reviewing and correcting they could have done the task.

For commodity engineering (Foundation design, eg.) the training time could pay dividends in the long term. For specialty work, the training time was too extensive to payout (IMHO, obviously the ones that decided to outsource saw it different). Then there was the added problem of turn over. At the time, so many companies were starting to outsource, the engineers were jumping ship left and right to get $1 more per hour (of course the $1 could represent a 10% to 15% increase). So there was NO positive return on specialty engineering, as you were always training.

As you said, the folks were nice, hardworking, and wanted to succeed. They were simply limited by limited experience, not by smarts or education.

In some respects, it was no different than hiring a new engineering graduate in the US. Despite all the education, the learning curve, at least for some of the work we did, was 5+ years.
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