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Old 11-16-2012, 07:15 PM   #21
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Putting aside ego, what prompts those who have attained a special position in history to work beyond the point of having their monetary needs satisfied?
I think many really enjoy the work itself, and probably a greater number thrive on the notoriety, the satisfaction of doing important things well, and the other perks. And I think that's absolutely great. We all benefit when great, and even "above average" leaders, writers, actors, craftsmen, teachers, tradesmen, etc keep working. But they aren't under any obligation to do it--they own themselves and their time.
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:20 PM   #22
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A real life example. Rewind the clock back when Michael Jordan retired from basketball to play minor league baseball. Some said, "How can he? The Bulls were in the middle of a 3-peat" but to others, walking away made perfect sense.

I say "no obligation."
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:28 PM   #23
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Obligation to worK? None at all.

Moral obligation is a sorta noble concept arising out of some idea of right or wrong.

The Japanese have a concept of "Giri", which roughly translates to obligation in English, but is far more encompassing and complex.

A link to an explanation by Masayuki Yoshida.


GIRI: A JAPANESE INDIGENOUS CONCEPT
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:34 PM   #24
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similarly, i have a friend with a doctorate in biophysics. he worked in a role at megacorp that used his advanced skillset for a short time...but then started a trend of taking rinky dink fun and easy roles instead. before long, megacorp let him go. (during a work downturn i think they decided that they could not justify paying him the same for the easy roles that they could for the challenging one and it was easier to let him go rather than renegotiate salary. he has since found another rinky dink role that keeps him happy and seems to pay enough.) does he too have a moral imperative to work to the maximum of his ability for the greater good of society?


Perhaps it comes down to the things that benefit of the many verses the benefit of the one. i think the Japanese culture is an example of one that would say we must put the interests of society over those of ourself.


this avenue of thought gets interesting....loving the Heinlein quotes too.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:38 PM   #25
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Being pragmatic, I do not ponder the general answer to the question. Instead, I asked if this applied to me. Why worry about things that do not concern myself? Then, I decided that I still did not care, because I was not gifted. Not applicable!

If I were truly gifted, they would have paid me a whole lot more to continue to work to produce brilliant designs for them. As they did not, I walked off the last job with a very clear conscience. Sayonara!
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:44 PM   #26
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My answer to your question is 'no'.
+1
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:45 PM   #27
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The background: In recent conversations with my father, he's expressed the position that someone who is "gifted" or might have higher aptitude for success, has some what of a moral obligation to do a job that is deemed more worthwhile, or more important. The discussion stemmed from my desire to retire early. He feels that it is greedy or self-centered for someone to retire early if they have the potential to impact events or people. I am by no means trying to toot my own horn here or paint myself as a Jack Bauer, but that's my father's (and probably most dad's) view of his son.
I'm sure some in this community have considered whether they're "letting anyone down" or not "living up to their potential" by pursuing FIRE.
Just like to hear some of the views.
"Thanks, Dad, I sure am gifted. I'm going to spend the first few months of my ER reconnecting with family and renewing our marriage and putting some more time into our kids' futures. Then I'm going to take a few more months to figure out how to maximize my human capital over the rest of my lifespan. Part of that will be giving back and paying it forward.
I know that I can always get a job. But just jumping from active duty straight into a bridge career won't give me much time for reflection, let alone learning. I'd like to see what my creative juices can produce once I give them the chance to recover. Hey, I have an idea. When I figure out an entrepreneurial business plan, would you be interested in getting in on the ground floor for only $100K?"

It's possible that your father is only saying "I love you" by being concerned that you'll end up homeless, and he may be especially concerned if you happen to be responsible for raising his grandkids. A more cynical perspective would be that he's dealing with envy, regret, or even jealousy.

My father actually nudged me down the road to ER, although I don't think he appreciated how it would pay off. OTOH my father-in-law has been quite alarmed by the whole idea of his daughter supporting that no-good freeloading slug with whom she's been sleeping, and the less he knows about our lifestyle the happier he is.

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Nobody, except my children and my spouse, have a "right" to my labor.
So, again, to Robert Heinlein:
Or, see the signature element below.
Y'know, I used to think that I was a Heinlein geek, but I bow in respect to your ability to come up with those quotes!
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:51 PM   #28
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Warning: this post may be relavent or not depending on your country. Mine is Canada.

Depends on your definition of "gifted". A friend's wife went to medical shool, paid in tuition about 10% of the cost of her education. Started working at about 25. By then the government country had invested the better part of $500K in her. Practised as a GP for about 15 years and made a good buck. Then she entered a residency program for about 5 years. While she was not making the $ she had been, she was paid about $75K/yr to learn more. She has practised the speciality for about 10 years and is now retiring at ~55.

Considering that she has had a subsidy about equal to her earnings, I'd say she has a "moral obligation" to work more. I'd be right pissed if someone, who might have worked as a physician for many years, missed an opening in med school (with its subsidies) to allow her to work for 25 years total.

Sure, to get into med school, you usually are academically "gifted". However, once in, you are financially "gifted". Pay back what you take.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:00 PM   #29
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Considering that she has had a subsidy about equal to her earnings, I'd say she has a "moral obligation" to work more. I'd be right pissed if someone, who might have worked as a physician for many years, missed an opening in med school (with its subsidies) to allow her to work for 25 years total.

Sure, to get into med school, you usually are academically "gifted". However, once in, you are financially "gifted". Pay back what you take.
Seems like the Canadian taxpayers should have made the quid pro quo specific--a contract to work for so many years under specific conditions in exchange for the scholarship and the subsidy. Then everything is in plain sight and the folks willing to meet the obligations will take the money. Just like any other contract.
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Y'know, I used to think that I was a Heinlein geek, but I bow in respect to your ability to come up with those quotes!
It's a sickness, I know. He's the only "philosopher" I've read!
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:04 PM   #30
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That's an interesting example and counterpoint kumquat. I can't imagine how that doc could be forced to work longer, and in fact I don't think she should receive any bullying to do so. But, I can see how if most who receive that special training in Canada did RE, it would present an interesting situation.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:07 PM   #31
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Seems like the Canadian taxpayers should have made the quid pro quo specific--a contract to work for so many years under specific conditions in exchange for the scholarship and the subsidy. Then everything is in plain sight and the folks willing to meet the obligations will take the money. Just like any other contract.
That would be a contract that's tough to enforce. The doc would simply retire on the job by developing poor eyesight, a nervous twitch, memory lapses, etc., as he/she edged into late mid-age.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:12 PM   #32
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Putting aside ego, what prompts those who have attained a special position in history to work beyond the point of having their monetary needs satisfied?
Self-actualization: Their work is a labor of love (of the craft, challenges, pursuing a dream, self-expression, inspiration to create or solve problems, whatever) and their lives enriched by the experience. They work purely for the pleasure of it.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:21 PM   #33
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Extend this logic, and you also have a moral obligation to spread your superior DNA around by fathering as many children as you can.
I see I was beaten to it. I remember it being suggested, when I was growing up, that those of us with "superior genes" had a moral obligation to have children.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:26 PM   #34
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The background: In recent conversations with my father, he's expressed the position that someone who is "gifted" or might have higher aptitude for success, has some what of a moral obligation to do a job that is deemed more worthwhile, or more important.
No!
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:27 PM   #35
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That would be a contract that's tough to enforce. The doc would simply retire on the job by developing poor eyesight, a nervous twitch, memory lapses, etc., as he/she edged into late mid-age.
Well, if the government "owned" them and they couldn't/wouldn't practice medicine, then there would be other (terribly boring) government jobs for them to do. Somebody has to inspect the medical billing records, inspect the prison dispensaries, etc. Most folks who are of the caliber to get into med school wouldn't flake out deliberately, and if the government wants a payback they should ask for it.
The very best way to avoid all this of course is to not give scholarships with some vague expectation of repayment but instead to give school loans that must be repaid. Everybody understands exactly what that means--and that's what the concept of "money" is for.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:27 PM   #36
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Self-actualization: Their work is a labor of love (of the craft, challenges, pursuing a dream, self-expression, inspiration to create or solve problems, whatever) and their lives enriched by the experience. They work purely for the pleasure of it.
+1

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Old 11-16-2012, 09:32 PM   #37
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Nope.When I left my job I got away from alot of unmoral people.To each his own.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:56 PM   #38
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Use your talents in different ways. Like volunteering with a charity or helping people you love but never had time to help before. I think those who are really talented can make more of a difference once released from the shackles of paid employment.
ERing is how talented people are able to contribute to society in the best way. Hence, the logic behind the "Genius Grants"


MacArthur Fellows Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The MacArthur Fellows Program or MacArthur Fellowship (nicknamed the Genius Grant) is an award given by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation each year to typically 20 to 40 United States citizens or residents, of any age and working in any field, who "show exceptional merit and promise for continued and enhanced creative work".
According to the Foundation's website, "the fellowship is not a reward for past accomplishment, but rather an investment in a person's originality, insight, and potential."
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:58 PM   #39
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Most folks who are of the caliber to get into med school wouldn't flake.
Obviously you haven't lived in the Chicago area........
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:23 PM   #40
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The morality police have new requirements that all ER's must report back to work.



They also have their ongoing requirement that "excess" nesteggs are to be forfeited to those with a better lobbying organization.
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