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Old 11-16-2012, 10:54 PM   #41
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My personal belief is that we each have a moral obligation to our community to support, enhance, and develop it to the best of our abilities.

Whether or not you do that while drawing pay for your work is up to you.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:55 PM   #42
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That's an interesting example and counterpoint kumquat. I can't imagine how that doc could be forced to work longer, and in fact I don't think she should receive any bullying to do so. But, I can see how if most who receive that special training in Canada did RE, it would present an interesting situation.
I can think of one way. If she had to borrow or otherwise pay for the training, she'd have to work to pay it back. Simple problem, simple solution.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:58 PM   #43
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By leaving my job, I opened the door to some newcomer to take it that needed it more. In fact, my closing salary would have afforded a couple of newcomers. I worked hard for my financial independence, paid plenty in taxes, made an impression on my colleagues and direct reports. I don't feel like I owe anybody anything.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:30 PM   #44
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Who can even say that they will have the opportunity to work up to their "gifted potential?" Beyond the shadow of a doubt, for the last 4 years I have been engaged in a job that is was beneath my supposed greatest potential. The "greatest potential" jobs simply are not out there for me.

In any case, the whole preposition that you owe the universe just because you are not dumb and should therefore work ntil death is preposterous.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:37 PM   #45
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.....
Considering that she has had a subsidy about equal to her earnings, I'd say she has a "moral obligation" to work more. I'd be right pissed if someone, who might have worked as a physician for many years, missed an opening in med school (with its subsidies) to allow her to work for 25 years total...
Is the value of her 25 years only measured in the dollars spent in training, or measured by her salary?

If she saved or extended others lives in her 25 years, didn't taxpayers get a good return on their money?
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:21 AM   #46
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Is the value of her 25 years only measured in the dollars spent in training, or measured by her salary?

If she saved or extended others lives in her 25 years, didn't taxpayers get a good return on their money?
All doctors 'save or extend' some lives. The value the taxpayer got is propotional to what another worthy candidate for med school would have done.

If the cost of her training was spent on someone who could have been, like another doctor friend, still practising after 50 years, no they did not. If the training could have gone to some who practised for 26, 27, or 35 years, then no, they did not.

If she had practised for 1 year and saved other lives would you think the taxpayers got a good return?
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:30 AM   #47
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Warning: this post may be relavent or not depending on your country. Mine is Canada.

Depends on your definition of "gifted". A friend's wife went to medical shool, paid in tuition about 10% of the cost of her education. Started working at about 25. By then the government country had invested the better part of $500K in her. Practised as a GP for about 15 years and made a good buck. Then she entered a residency program for about 5 years. While she was not making the $ she had been, she was paid about $75K/yr to learn more. She has practised the speciality for about 10 years and is now retiring at ~55.

Considering that she has had a subsidy about equal to her earnings, I'd say she has a "moral obligation" to work more. I'd be right pissed if someone, who might have worked as a physician for many years, missed an opening in med school (with its subsidies) to allow her to work for 25 years total.

Sure, to get into med school, you usually are academically "gifted". However, once in, you are financially "gifted". Pay back what you take.
So, how do you value the lives she saved over 25 years in practice, plus her (underpaid) at least 7 years of residency?

Some provinces, e.g. Quebec, have tried, and failed, to compel physicians to work in undeserved areas for lengthy periods of time. There's this little document called the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (section 6, mobility) that guarantees all Canadian citizens the right to live and work (or not) wherever they want to, etc, etc.

You could make a better argument by citing my case, in which I completed medical school and nine years of postgraduate training before arriving in Canada. I am grateful for the opportunities I have had in Canada, but I do not feel any obligation to work in my home country as it could not provide me with good career prospects that would use my potential and provide meaningful rewards. I am happy to make that considerable donation of a "ready-made" physician to this great country.

Investment in education by society is a common good; sometimes it will pay off handsomely, sometimes it will be break even, and sometimes it will be a net financial loss. Overall, society benefits. To compel individuals to decades of service based on this is a form of indentured servitude.

I also respect your right to ER and to take full advantage of publicly funded health and other social services which you and I are both paying for.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:58 AM   #48
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Reminds me of some of the attitude I got when DH and I decided not to have kids. When you make a choice that will bring you happiness but it flies in the face of how others live their lives, a certain percentage will get huffy about it.

DH and I have the resources and aptitude to be good parents. Some folks use this as a kind of cudgel to beat us with. "You're being selfish." "You are turning your back on the most important thing in life...."

I can see how that same mindset could be used to criticize ER.

I tend to be mild mannered but this kind of nonsense just burns my cheese. We each get exactly one life. Critics can spend their own however they'd like. They don't get to spend other people's lives.

Some people won't be happy unless you die at your desk under a pile of accomplishments they find worthy. No thanks!

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:03 AM   #49
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Considering that she has had a subsidy about equal to her earnings, I'd say she has a "moral obligation" to work more.
Wow. If she had paid for all of her own tuition and expenses while in medical school, instead of receiving much of it in subsidies, at 55 yo she'd still be short of break-even. Not sure how compensation for med folks works up there, but obviously if she was going to repay the subsidies she'd have to earn a lot more over her career than she did.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:24 AM   #50
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Wow. If she had paid for all of her own tuition and expenses while in medical school, instead of receiving much of it in subsidies, at 55 yo she'd still be short of break-even. Not sure how compensation for med folks works up there, but obviously if she was going to repay the subsidies she'd have to earn a lot more over her career than she did.
Here are the data. Based on gross earnings, assuming hers were average, the subsidy would be equivalent to just over 2 years of full time work.

http://www.cihi.ca/CIHI-ext-portal/i...ELEASE_15DEC11
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:08 AM   #51
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No one has a moral obligation to live their life like their parent's want them to.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:44 AM   #52
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Gaaah. Just gaaaaah.

I happen to agree that children are the most important thing in life - for those who have them. That's why I support tax breaks for parents, work accommodations for parents, etc. But telling people who are mature enough to realize they don't want kids that they "ought" to have them....gaaaah.

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DH and I have the resources and aptitude to be good parents. Some folks use this as a kind of cudgel to beat us with. "You're being selfish." "You are turning your back on the most important thing in life...."
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:32 AM   #53
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Parallel questions:

- If you are especially fertile do you have a 'moral obligation' to have children?
- If you are butt ugly do you have a moral obligation to stay out of public view?
And, if you are both...well, you have a quandary!
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:33 AM   #54
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The background: In recent conversations with my father, he's expressed the position that someone who is "gifted" or might have higher aptitude for success, has some what of a moral obligation to do a job that is deemed more worthwhile, or more important.
Deemed more important by who and by what criteria?

Financially, sure I'm way below my potential and as the line goes, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn". We could have stayed in the DC area and would now have an income of ~$300k/year and we'd be absolutely miserable.

Neither of us saw any future going down that road.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:40 AM   #55
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No disrespect to your dad - who obviously loves you - but IMHO, anyone who tells anyone they have a "moral obligation" to do anything is being pompous, and if I were there to hear it, I would bust out laughing.
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I think that a requirement of happy early retirement is to quit giving a s**t what other people's expectations are of you.
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Now, this sounds like something my Dad would say. In fact, as I think about it, my Dad would probably have said this before retiring.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:43 AM   #56
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These high level discussions never meant much to me. I guess that's because I really don't have any special gift that someone else couldn't do. I believe that we do have an obligation to take care of ourselves and not be a burden on others if at all possible. That's as far as it goes in my mind.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:41 AM   #57
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As long as no one retires before acquiring a nest egg that supports a 2.5% WR or lower, it's OK to retire gifted or not. Otherwise, you're obligated to keep working to make sure you won't be a burden to younger taxpayers.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:23 AM   #58
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Damn! At 3.5%WR, I thought I would be OK.

Alright, alright, I might need my SS when I get older. I think I will not be a burden on the younger generation, because they will just give me the SS portion of the people who do not need it.

Like the ones with 2.5%WR, for example.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:47 AM   #59
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So, if those with 'greater gifts' should work more, does that mean those others not so fortunate should work less?

I got a lot of that "what a waste" and "you could be doing so much" when I first quit, and it really irritated me. It only went away when I pointed out that "I did do so much, but saved it all instead of spending". Good-natured presumption...
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:48 AM   #60
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Investment in education by society is a common good; sometimes it will pay off handsomely, sometimes it will be break even, and sometimes it will be a net financial loss. Overall, society benefits. To compel individuals to decades of service based on this is a form of indentured servitude.
Well said.

DW and I received our tax-payer funded education through college in England and then emigrated 10 years after graduating.

Both our children received 100% Louisiana tax-paid education but after graduating left the State and never paid back a penny in State taxes.
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