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Old 11-18-2012, 10:22 AM   #81
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Well I am called "Doctor" and I practice medicine.
Obgyn65, since you are still 'practicing' medicine, you probably are not among the gifted people whom the OP was referring to. LOL!!!


On the serious side, I think your volunteer efforts are most commendable and one of the best reasons to be part of the medical profession.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:31 AM   #82
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My 91 year old Aunt couldn't understand why I retired at 55 since she worked into her 80's. I said, "If you work twice as hard you can work half as long." She had nothing to say to that.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:33 AM   #83
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My 91 year old Aunt couldn't understand why I retired at 55 since she worked into her 80's. I said, "If you work twice as hard you can work half as long." She had nothing to say to that.
"She had nothing to say to that." - Maybe her arthritic hips prevented her from kicking you in the nuts.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:56 AM   #84
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I'm not sure why the discussion is limited to the "gifted". The same question could be asked to anybody -- why don't you donate more of your time/money etc to those in need. In fact, you could take on a second job.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:03 AM   #85
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Love this thread. I was thinking about the OP's dad telling him that gifted people have an obligation to keep working and it's fun to read between those lines (I know this is NOT the OP's situation):

I'm iimagining a boomerang student who moved back home after college on mom and dad's dime and is sleeping in all morning and "job hunting" on the internet the rest of the day while calling upstairs to mom to bring some food and asking dad for gas money for hanging out with the gang in the evening. Parents have demanded their child get a job, cajoled him/her, threatened, bribed, etc., so now they're trying the "you're too gifted to not work" approach. Probably have been telling the kid he/she's gifted up until now, so why not try it.

It's good that many gifted people continue working way past the point of financial independence. But if they didn't, someone else would come in to fill the void.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:18 AM   #86
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My 91 year old Aunt couldn't understand why I retired at 55 since she worked into her 80's. I said, "If you work twice as hard you can work half as long." She had nothing to say to that.
I have told people that because I spend half as much, I can afford to work half as long.

I work hard too, but saying that might offend the listeners, mostly my coworkers.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:23 AM   #87
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I am useless at many things, including finance in general, financial planning in particular, cooking, and mechanical repairs - but patients love me, which I consider a "gift". However, this "gift" is not about me per se.
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Originally Posted by Chuckanut

Obgyn65, since you are still 'practicing' medicine, you probably are not among the gifted people whom the OP was referring to. LOL!!!

On the serious side, I think your volunteer efforts are most commendable and one of the best reasons to be part of the medical profession.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:25 AM   #88
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When someone tells me he loves to work I want to reply "never love something that cannot love you back".
There were indeed works that I loved. It was like a hobby, a very expensive one where someone paid for state-of-the-art parts for me to design in, and the fancy tools and equipment for testing. And they paid me fairly well to do it.

I only stopped when they knew that I enjoyed it, and started to squeeze me for more. Hell, I have learned to not let people take advantage of me. Work is fun, but I have other fun activities too (which I have to pay to do of course!).


PS. There is a difference between one's work and a job. I loved my work, but not necessarily a job. I have been telling my children to be enthusiastic about their work. One cannot get good at what one does, unless he likes what he does. Until one reaches FI, he has to work for a living, and hating what one does makes it that more miserable.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:56 AM   #89
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Canada is not the only place where doctor's education and training are government subsidized. Anyone doing residency training in the USA is essentially paid by Medicare without which there would be no residency programs. There was an editorial (in the LA or NY Times?) about this that I looked for and cannot find. The basic argument was that doctors have an obligation to NOT retire early because society through the government invests so much in their training.
As a physician who collected those government salaries during residency back when residency meant 80-100 hour work weeks and therefore translated into a paltry hourly salary--and as someone who has since paid top $ income tax brackets, my reaction to that is---
. As someone else said, if there was going to be a more specific quid pro quo that should have been agreed to in the beginning. You have gotten out of me what you are going to get. I am done.
Not quite true anymore. In 1997 Medicare (US Gov't) capped # of residency spots it funds while total US med school graduation has steadily increased since-
https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/fixdocshortage/
In many cases individual hospitals & physician practices are electing to internally fund additional residency positions, although it's unclear how much longer that will be possible with changes in US health care landscape (e.g. most physicians now employees, future funding cuts, etc.). Fellowships (physician training years beyond residency, e.g. Cardiology, surgical subspecialties) are generally not Medicare funded.

And I can safely say that current US med students burdened with $100-300+k in educational loans (often at 6.5+% interest & NOT dischargeable in bankruptcy BTW) sure do not feel they have any "moral obligation" to continue practicing later in life due to gov't "funding" their education. But ER for many in this generation of docs is not likely to be possible anyway due to their state of financially indentured servitude, as discussed here-
Real life example of medical school debt
More sobering facts about current med student debt situation-
https://www.aamc.org/services/first/
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:24 PM   #90
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"She had nothing to say to that." - Maybe her arthritic hips prevented her from kicking you in the nuts.
She did not have to work. She is one of those people obsessed with working. Can't understand how you cannot go to work every day as long as you can. It's like a moral imperative to her.
She has told me "What will you do all day?" and You will go back soon, you will be bored.

This comes from a person that worked for 30 years sewing gloves together. Bored, I would say so.

And I did in fact work harder than her for a much shorter time. She never had a commute, never was on call. No overtime without pay ext. Oh yeah. No children, that was work too!
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:57 PM   #91
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Well I am called "Doctor" and I practice medicine. I consider it a privilege to serve all my patients. I also consider it a privilege to volunteer at free clinics here and abroad. I like to think about these non profit activities as a "moral duty" to help others, but it does not feel like a "moral obligation" that society is imposing on me. Not sure if this makes sense or what.
I think I get it. You get joy in helping others and feel no pressure to do what you do. I've seen pictures you've posted and read your stories about your travels to help people in need. I have a lot of respect for you. Many with your skills and education would be focused on personal wealth instead of healing people. We could use more doctors - and people - like you in this world.
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:22 PM   #92
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i think i get it. You get joy in helping others and feel no pressure to do what you do. I've seen pictures you've posted and read your stories about your travels to help people in need. I have a lot of respect for you. Many with your skills and education would be focused on personal wealth instead of healing people. We could use more doctors - and people - like you in this world.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:05 PM   #93
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Seems like the Canadian taxpayers should have made the quid pro quo specific--a contract to work for so many years under specific conditions in exchange for the scholarship and the subsidy......
No, this thread is about a "moral" obligation. Obviously there is no such legal obligation

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You could make a better argument by citing my case, in which I completed medical school and nine years of postgraduate training before arriving in Canada. I am grateful for the opportunities I have had in Canada, but I do not feel any obligation to work in my home country as it could not provide me with good career prospects that would use my potential and provide meaningful rewards. I am happy to make that considerable donation of a "ready-made" physician to this great country.

Investment in education by society is a common good; sometimes it will pay off handsomely, sometimes it will be break even, and sometimes it will be a net financial loss. Overall, society benefits. To compel individuals to decades of service based on this is a form of indentured servitude.

I also respect your right to ER and to take full advantage of publicly funded health and other social services which you and I are both paying for.
See above for the difference between a legal and moral obligation. This is where your view and mine may diverge but "moral" is up to the individual. Hence the YMMV qualifier on many posts.

In your case, as a Canadian I want to thank the Irish for your training. If I was an Irish tax-payer, I'd have a different opinion.

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Yes, I used to work for $8 per hour as an intern. We have paid a non financial price too, in the damage done to our physical and mental health. Wishing you a happy RE!
My uncle was an OBG who trained circa 1943-1953. His education was totally funded by scholarship. I remember him talking to discussing laughing at another cousin who was complaining about intern's pay. Uncle claimed (and I can't guarentee it's true) that as an intern he worked, lived at and couldn't leave the hospital without permission. He claimed no big deal: the hospital gave him room and board, and he lived in hospital provided scrubs since he didn't have enough money for 'street clothes'.

I've never suggested that you should be compelled to work more, that's a personal decision as all 'moral' decisions are. The answer to the question posed by the thread title is your's and your's alone.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:57 PM   #94
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As for the Irish government, both I and my parents paid more than our share of taxes. When I was an intern in Ireland, my marginal tax rate was sixty-five (65)%. I paid taxes for 6 years at rates like that before I left.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:01 PM   #95
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She did not have to work. She is one of those people obsessed with working. Can't understand how you cannot go to work every day as long as you can. It's like a moral imperative to her.
She has told me "What will you do all day?" and You will go back soon, you will be bored.
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Work is foremost an exchange of time versus money. If it is good, there are also other benefits like positive social interactions, a sense of belonging, the feeling of contributing to something important. But still....
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The same question could be asked to anybody -- why don't you donate more of your time/money etc to those in need. In fact, you could take on a second job.
Three mornings a week, the local survivors of the attack on Pearl Harbor gather at the Visitors Center of the WWII Valor In The Pacific National Monument USS ARIZONA Memorial.

They sit behind a table. They wear their volunteer shirts and perhaps their American Legion garrison caps or command ballcaps. A couple of them have written books (which are on sale in the bookstore) and they autograph them. Others are written up in history books, and they autograph "their" pages. They tell sea stories, explain to the kids how war really feels, get hugs from the ladies (they say "war vets are chick magnets"), and have their pictures taken. A donation jar sits on the table.

The national Pearl Harbor Survivors Association disbanded last year after they went below 200 members. I think the Visitor Center group is down to four or five regulars. At least one of them is in a mobility scooter. One of them recently (regretfully) moved to the Mainland to be near his adult children, but even he was scared after his last heart attack. All of them shake their heads, even the heart attack survivor, because they know what's going to happen to him within the year. All of them cheerfully agree that the main thing that keeps them alive is the routine of going to the Memorial three mornings a week. They claim that without it they literally might not have a reason to live.

Last year their donation jar cleared over $100K.

Who knows, maybe in 40 or 50 years my hoverchair will be parked over by the Submarine Museum next door in front of gear from an ancient LOS ANGELES class sub.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:04 PM   #96
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As for the Irish government, both I and my parents paid more than our share of taxes. When I was an intern in Ireland, my marginal tax rate was sixty-five (65)%. I paid taxes for 6 years at rates like that before I left.
Crikey! How much does an intern get paid? One big fat million a year?

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Old 11-18-2012, 09:25 PM   #97
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My comments were based on kumquat's statement that, at 55, her total earnings had not exceeded the amount she received as subsidies.



Perhaps the example that kumquat used was not typical.
Perhaps kumquat didn't phrase it as well as he might have. His intent was not to suggest that at 55 the lifetime earning were not equal to subsidies. It was to suggest that it takes a long time to cover them (especially at a discount rate applicable to 1980).
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:31 PM   #98
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Crikey! How much does an intern get paid? One big fat million a year?

No one can blame you for leaving now!
In 1980, IIIRC, I earned just over four thousand pounds (that was equivalent to ~$6.5K in US dollars) and paid approximately 2200 pounds of it back in income tax. I was living at home and did nothing but work and sleep. LBYM of course. Personal income tax rates in Ireland at that time were extremely high, even for people earning a moderate income. By the time I was completing my training in Ireland, I was earning about eight thousand pounds, or $13K. When I moved to the US as a Fellow I started earning $25K and paid much less in income tax. I thought I had died and gone to heaven.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:08 PM   #99
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Holy mackerel!

I had to go dig out my tax return in 1980 to compare notes. I have been living in heaven all these years. Following were the numbers in US dollars in 1980, the first year we were married and I started working full-time. The numbers were our combined incomes and taxes, rounded to the nearest 100.

Income: $36200
Federal tax: $5200
State tax: $900
SS tax: $2200

The total tax burden was ($5200+$900+$2200)/$36200 = 22.9%. This did not include real-estate tax and sales taxes.

I also rediscovered what we paid for our home that year: $6000. That was for principal+interest+taxes+insurance, but we bought our home in April, so it was for 8 months, not the full 12 months. The mortgage rate was 14% then.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:03 PM   #100
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Thank you, Purron and Amethyst, for your kind words.
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I think I get it. You get joy in helping others and feel no pressure to do what you do. I've seen pictures you've posted and read your stories about your travels to help people in need. I have a lot of respect for you. Many with your skills and education would be focused on personal wealth instead of healing people. We could use more doctors - and people - like you in this world.
And for the first time I am using the Multi+ quote function. Learn something new everyday.

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+1.



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