DQOTD: Would you pay $100K to avoid winters?

[kcowan]

We have friends from Chitown. They had a big house in the northern suburbs and a cottage on the eastern shore of Lake MI. They were vacationing in PV, probably 9 years ago. They have a nice condo in the Tampa Bay area.

Fast forward to 2018 and they are renting a condo on the water in PV for 2 weeks and have downsized to a condo in downtown Chicago. It seems that Chitown gets under the skin! They still go to Fla to avoid winter. And of course the cottage is for the family reunions.

 

[RunningBum]

I'll stick with averages, not exceptions thanks. 40" vs 3" on average.

And if I used your exception basis, I was here in Chicago in 2013-14 when we had 82" - 20" even in a single event would be a picnic in comparison...

That's fine, I was just refuting the assertion by another poster that you'd never need a shovel. You won't need it often, and if you stock up well enough you can probably ride out most snows at home until it melts, but not always. And don't be one of those northerners who moans about how the city/county/state doesn't know how to handle snow. Unless you want to pay for it in taxes, it's not worth having an armada of plows.

Personally, I liked a little snow now and then, just not the bone chilling weather that lasts so long up north. Not this year, I guess.

 

[Ready]

Midpack,

I spend my day outdoors year round. We have family who live in Michigan, and we like seeing them but dread going there anytime other than the summer time.

If I had to choose between working full time to live in a warm climate, or retiring to a cold weather location, I would choose to work full time. I hate the cold that much. And I grew up in Boston, so I know what it's like and would never do it again.

$100K to move someplace warmer seems like a bargain to me. I don't understand what the hesitation is. As others have said, you can't take it with you. Relax and go someplace warm and cozy. You'll like it!

 

[iloveyoga]

Well, we don't have cold winters here, but we DO have hot summers.

I wouldn't pay much of anything to get better temperatures, even in the summers. In 2017, we are not living in a covered wagon train or a mud hut. We have excellent climate control in our houses, cars, the gym, and in all the businesses and restaurants that we patronize, and so on. The only time we experience unpleasant weather is for about 10 feet from the car to wherever we are going.

Now, maybe it's different in the North:
(1) You'd have to pay someone for snow removal (but then down here, we pay for incessant lawn mowing).
(2) You might slip and fall, or even break a hip, on the ice and snow (but then, even I have heard of YakTrax and that would be the first purchase I'd make if we ever lost our minds and moved north).
(3) You might have more power outages than we do, due to ice, but my perception is that most houses up north do not heat with electricity, plus they have a fireplace or wood stove too. You could get a generator for other electrical needs during an outage.
(4) You can't do much gardening in the wintertime (but here, gardening pretty much consists of hacking back vegetation, back breaking work that is required weekly since we get outrageous jungle-like growth; I have never intentionally planted anything in the 20+ years since I moved to South Louisiana, and that's not uncommon).

So what is your biggest objection to the cold? This is an honest question since I have not lived in "snow country" since the mid 70's. All I remember is being afraid to drive after spinning out on black ice once. But you are used to driving on ice by now, I would expect.

Would having the insulation on your home "beefed up" so that you can be nice and toasty warm all winter, make you happier than moving to North Carolina? If you are really thinking of spending $100K for climate alone, why not invest that $100K in insulating your home, getting a better heating system for your home and garage too, and hiring someone to shovel the snow so that you don't have to?

It sounds to me like your present home has a lot of qualities that you really like, and if you move you might miss all of those great qualities and regret it.

It was fun to read your description of an Iowa winter. Most of our homes are heated with natural gas.

 

[iloveyoga]

One of the worst things about Iowa winters for me, besides the driving which was mentioned above, is being stuck in the house on the bad days. Usually, there are a number of days where the snow or bitter cold make it better to just stay in, which is a retirement perk. But one day of that is enough for me. This year, we fought back by getting away to Florida for several weeks, that helped a lot.

 

[Amethyst]

Let me guess. They are showing you houses in the ring of "over-55" developments around Raleigh-Durham, right?

We wouldn't even go down and look, once we checked the map and saw how far away those developments are from town. If you happened to have a stroke, say, you'd be unfixable by the time they got you to Duke Hospital.

Oh - and we were willing to spend up to $900K and still couldn't get closer in, unless we were willing to live crammed right up against the next McMansion (and I use that term advisedly - not to mean "nice big house" as it is often used).

Yes but, and we're getting off track here - the question is paying a $100K premium to avoid winter. Online searches and two realtors are having trouble finding us a small, but very high quality open concept one story in a reasonably safe area not too far out at much under $400K. Believe me, we've been looking for quite a while. So happens it's exactly the same house as here, same builder - $350K vs $450K.

 

[Texas Proud]

Wow.... a lot of posts about winter....

OK... I am in the camp of doing it... like others have mentioned and I agree with... you are just moving money from an investment account to a house... when and if you need to move again you will get it back (more likely than not)....

 

[Marita40]

It sounds to me like you are feeling some ennui (pardon my French) after feeling cooped up in another dreary Midwest winter. I don't get a real sense of resolve or excitement when you talk about your potential move--you don't seem to be moving to something, as in a fun and interesting new phase of life, just away from something that's driving you nuts. I'd suggest you try to change your malaise first, and then plan more carefully for something that really excites you. Why not take a month right now in the NC area you are interested in and nose around? I'll bet after a month you'll have a lot of new thoughts about the area and excellent sense of what is available.
I'm in MN--Twin Cities--and happen to love winter. Everyone and their grandmother is out and about on even the coldest days, it seems, and there are winter sports galore. But I also know Chicago, having grown up there, and the wet cold and gray days versus the dry cold and sunny days are indeed miserable.

 

[redduck]

... We were all charged up (again) to move to NC, but a comparable home will cost $100K more, and avoiding winter and just new places to explore is really all it comes down to. Being a snowbird would be even more costly, so that's out for us.

It's not only the $100K out of pocket, but 2-2½ times higher property taxes and slightly higher income/sales taxes too.

I think the salient issue might be: what does $100K mean to you? Is it actually going to make much of a difference in your financial situation if you spend an extra $100K on a house? And, are the higher property taxes going to be a true burden (financially or emotionally) or just an irritant?

 

[RAE]

I guess we should re-look at rentals, it would allow us to change locations every year - we'd like that. But DW is going to expect a full sized house, which adds costs and logistics issues. And we'd want to be there in winter, when I assume everyone else does too.

We rent a full-sized house on the Texas Gulf Coast for 2 1/2 months every winter for less than $4000. The weather is generally pretty good, even in Jan. and Feb., even though that is the "off-season" down there, so rental rates are quite a bit less than they would be the rest of the year.

I don't know much about N. Carolina, but my guess is that rental rates are generally lower there in the coldest winter months also. It would certainly be worth checking out.

 

[Midpack]

Let me guess. They are showing you houses in the ring of "over-55" developments around Raleigh-Durham, right?

We'd prefer a mix gen neighborhood, but the 55+ homes are exactly what we want, so it was our idea. As a result we have to be open to small 55+ communities, but the mega's like Del Webb are a big no go for us!

It sounds to me like you are feeling some ennui (pardon my French) after feeling cooped up in another dreary Midwest winter. I don't get a real sense of resolve or excitement when you talk about your potential move--you don't seem to be moving to something, as in a fun and interesting new phase of life, just away from something that's driving you nuts. I'd suggest you try to change your malaise first, and then plan more carefully for something that really excites you. Why not take a month right now in the NC area you are interested in and nose around? I'll bet after a month you'll have a lot of new thoughts about the area and excellent sense of what is available.

Definitely, for 24 years the pattern has been the same. In Dec it's novel, the first snow is pretty, especially if it's around Christmas. In Jan it's tolerable but by Feb we're over it and by Mar we seriously wonder why (the hell) we live here - hate it. Apr-May is OK but rainy. Summer-Fall are actually pretty nice, especially near Lake Michigan. If we could have 12 Septembers every year, we'd happily pay a big premium!

I think the salient issue might be: what does $100K mean to you? Is it actually going to make much of a difference in your financial situation if you spend an extra $100K on a house? And, are the higher property taxes going to be a true burden (financially or emotionally) or just an irritant?

The $100K gives [-]us[/-] me pause, but it is just a minor change in AA as many have noted. We can afford the prop taxes, "irritant" is an apt description.

 

[Out of Steam]

If you are willing to live THAT far out of the city, then you can find dirt cheap places to live in NC. Even at 25 mi outside of the Triangle or Charlotte. Are you comparing apples to apples?

OP may be comfortable living in a distant suburb in his home region around Chicago, but may find places 25-50 miles from the two North Carolina cities far less comfortable for a transplant than places closer in.

 

[meierlde]

If medical issues are a big concern then looking at where medical schools are located tells a great deal, In Ga besides Atlanta there is Macon and Augusta. Alabama med schools are in Birmingham or Mobile. In Tennessee there are med schools at Nashville, Memphis and Johnson City. A med school does indicate a more complete medical infrastructure in a city. All these states are also places to look for moving. Birmingham also is somewhat protected from Hurricanes, Mobile is however very exposed.

 

[Out of Steam]

I'm very comfortable with our winters in the mid-Atlantic, and my wife seems OK with them. We don't plan on moving more than 150 miles from our current Washington, DC suburb.

 

[1-31-18]

Somewhere in the Triangle. We've been spoiled living next to (very) large metro areas all our lives, and we're not willing to give that up. Charlotte and the Triangle are probably the only options to us.

Those are the two best choices for someone accustomed to big city life up north, "suburban variety" that is. Nothing in the Carolinas compares to center city living in NY or Chicago. I can say that because I have lived in all four places myself.

I might make the same move you are considering, but only after retiring and seeing how manageable winters are in retirement in the north. My working hypothesis is that I'll be fine with staying indoors when the weather is unruly. Besides, my fiancée actually prefers northern winters. She'd rather move to Minnesota or Maine than the south.

Both Charlotte and the Triangle are rather humid in the summer. Be mindful of that. The art scene is OK but nothing much. And those two places are still culturally different from the north, which might or might not be a welcome change for you.

It does take two years or so to get used to the differences in my experience. Like moving to a foreign country, you might want to rent before you buy. Said with immense respect and affection for my friends in the Carolinas.

 

[cyber888]

Well, you may pay for a higher priced house, but NC real estate taxes are much lower than Chicago ... I see your sign 'Chicagoland'.
And in NC, there are houses that are cheaper, you probably just need to look for it. Lastly, NC has mild winters, but we do get cold too.

I know it's a stupid question, but more than once someone here has pointed out something (often simple) that pushed me off dead center when we get stuck (minded). We were all charged up (again) to move to NC, but a comparable home will cost $100K more, and avoiding winter and just new places to explore is really all it comes down to. Being a snowbird would be even more costly, so that's out for us.

It's not only the $100K out of pocket, but 2-2½ times higher property taxes and slightly higher income/sales taxes too.

Anyone got that convincing push?

It's a choice only you can make, and if you can afford it why not aren't working so far...

 

[bw5972]

I know it's a stupid question, but more than once someone here has pointed out something (often simple) that pushed me off dead center when we get stuck (minded). We were all charged up (again) to move to NC, but a comparable home will cost $100K more, and avoiding winter and just new places to explore is really all it comes down to. Being a snowbird would be even more costly, so that's out for us.

It's not only the $100K out of pocket, but 2-2½ times higher property taxes and slightly higher income/sales taxes too.

Anyone got that convincing push?

It's a choice only you can make, and if you can afford it why not aren't working so far...

J*b transplanted from NJ to Charlotte some 20 years ago. I miss the winter/snow sometimes but not often.

Bought a house recently within the city limits in the University area, about 10 miles north of "uptown" (it is unPC to call it downtown).

2 story, 2832 sqft, 4 BR 2.5 BA
220,000 purchase cost (2013)
203,700 current assessed tax value
280,000 current Zillow estimate

Property tax for 2016 was $1610

Very reasonable compared to NJ.

 

[1-31-18]

Fair point. Things have changed since we moved here in 1992, when we couldn't wait to drive into Chicago every weekend. Now it's once or month or less, though we'd go more often if it wasn't so far-more congested-more expensive. Though we live 50 miles from Grant Park, we're not looking to live that far from everything in the Triangle. Even Wake Forest, which would be less expensive, gives us pause.

If you live 50 miles from Grant Park, and if your taxes are much lower than in Chicago, and if you are near the lake, then you are either in Wisconsin or Indiana, in which case you won't miss city amenities much by moving to the Triangle because you don't have them now. If you are 50 miles west of Grant Park, well, there is no there there.

Probably the Triangle is more urbane than your present domain: the three major universities there account for strong cultural attractions. Also, you can drive 10 miles outside Raleigh, Durham or Chapel Hill and be in the country, with low taxes yet excellent proximity. Driving into town is not a theoretical possibility in that case, as it is for your Chicago opportunity now. You will want and need to do it because those three towns are where all the action is.

If this were my choice to make, I would much rather be in or near the Triangle than be 50 miles from center city Chicago. But I'm a city dweller. The Triangle is fairly sophisticated and diverse because of the universities and RTP. Exurban Chicago, not so much. There are neighborhoods in Raleigh that look just like Chesterton, Indiana, for example, the main difference being that there's a lot more to do in the Triangle than there is in NW Indiana. And it doesn't snow much in Raleigh, but it's humid in the summer.

So YMMV, but I think "probably not" because you seem focused on the weather. Again I recommend that you try before you buy because of the north / south cultural differences. Many Yankees have moved to the Triangle, but it's still in the south.

 

[explanade]

Mexico or Central America?

May be too hot for some people.

 

[Scrapr]

I will ad a bit of data here. Not on housing prices but on relationships built over 24 years.

Last summer we sold our home of 23 years and moved to our vacation home. Which we have had for 12 years prior to downsizing. So we knew the area fairly well. And knew the neighbors. Mrs Scrapr is a social person. The first 6 months just about broke her. She misses her friends in the old place terribly. We are only 3 hours away so we are starting to plan monthly trips for her. If long time friendships are important I'd be wary

*we moved because of rain not snow. But this year we got a ton of snow at our vacation house. Be careful what you wish for?

 

[davismills]

My grandfather always said that the worse move he ever made, was the first one.

I was raised in NC in the Mooresville area just about 20 miles north of Charlotte. Lake Norman is the big draw for that area. The property taxes are reasonable, but housing prices are rapidly on the rise. If you can stand to live 10 to 15 miles out of the big cities, I think you'll find living in NC to be much cheaper than Chicago.

 

[Midpack]

So YMMV, but I think "probably not" because you seem focused on the weather. Again I recommend that you try before you buy because of the north / south cultural differences. Many Yankees have moved to the Triangle, but it's still in the south.

Good advice to be sure.

We've lived in Dallas, San Antonio and Tampa-St Pete-Clearwater and my last Corp HQ was in Memphis so we have experienced southern culture and weather. We've also lived near four northern large metro areas in the Midwest and Northeast. We enjoy northern and southern culture, and recognize the differences.

"We" do plan to rent before we buy, though DW isn't keen on moving stuff twice, and it would be nice to avoid.

And we've ruled out all but large metro areas in part because there are more transients including "Yankees" which should help us assimilate/make new friends if we're respectful. We'd never consider a small southern town at our advanced ages, even though we honestly don't project 'why can't youse be more like up North..." at all. Our MO has always been to live close (25-50 miles) but not in major metro areas so we have access to big city amenities without the higher costs, congestion and crime.

 

[rayinpenn]

So what is your biggest objection to the cold? This is an honest question since I have not lived in "snow country" since the mid 70's. All I remember is being afraid to drive after spinning out on black ice once. But you are used to driving on ice by now, I would expect.

Allow me to help you ...
1) Sitting in an ice cold car waiting for the windows to defrost sufficiently to safety proceed
2) Even in my snug as a bug, in our well insulated, triple paned, draft free home feeling guilty about turning the heat up to 70 on the stoves because I am chilled to the bone.
3) the incessant grey mood altering miserable days
4) ice storms that kill the electricity for days... by the by no electric no heat most homes.. a fireplace isn't a wood stove.
5) not taking the dog for that healthy extra long walk because it is pitch black at 5PM, 20 degrees out or less with 25 MPH winds gusts.
6) standing on the platform waiting for the LIRR train, in single digit temperatures, that is 20 minutes late because of freezing switches.
7) falling on my butt twice
Once walking the dog in the early morning and didn't see the black ice and the second time walking into PT, in the morning for my new knee as I didn't see the ice from yesterday's snow melt. I'm sure both times it was quite a spectacle. I believe a saw 3 people hold up signs that said 9.5.
8) frozen pipes, car battery and me.
9) the women I know who walk all 'scrunched up' because they simply can't get warm
10) our diminished circulatory system's frozen hands...
11) going to work with snow predicted to start at 1PM.
12) the slush in the pothole that when over my galoshes and soaked my socks... won't this be a glorious day.
13) my inability to leave the hot shower.
14) My executive parking lot where the wind blows like Arctic station zebra.

I fight the cold - my arsenal includes a very warm Eskimo parka and an assortment of very warm coats. Guess what? I still despise the cold.

Im sitting on my deck in the morning, its 80 degrees with the umbrella up and open and I have a cup of coffee in hand. My laptop, extra portable monitor and iPad Pro are open on the table before me. The sun is shining, there's a slight breeze, the birds are chirping and a hummingbird is back and forth at the feeders and best of all I'm at work. I have Pandora on and I'm listening to Frank Sinatra when I get bored I'll listen to a little Gershwin. The Mrs and I will sneak off for a quick lunch just before noon. Exactly why would I like the cold?

 

[Midpack]

^^^ I was trapped at work twice (different years) with -20F temps, -60F wind chill and so much snow I had two guys plowing nonstop overnight. We had to shut down operations as we were fighting to avoid lines freezing and rupturing all night. It was so cold my mustache had ice crystals. If W2R had been here I guess we could have gone out for a brisk walk or ski.

 

[Amethyst]

In our house, not only "no electricity = no heat"; "no electricity = no water (including no toilet flushing!)" Electric pumps get water from the well to the house, and then to the first and second floors.

Other than that, I tolerate the cold pretty well. "Tolerate" does not equal "like." I think one deserves something better than "tolerable" living circumstances.

4) ice storms that kill the electricity for days... by the by no electric no heat most homes.. a fireplace isn't a wood stove.

?