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Old 03-19-2017, 02:41 PM   #41
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Apropos. Apparently opioid addiction can happen in as little as a few days..

with-a-10-day-supply-of-opioids-1-in-5-become-long-term-users
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017...ng-term-users/

"'The longer a person uses opioids, the greater the risk of forming a deadly addiction. But just how long does it take to switch from being a short-term user—say, while you’re dealing with pain after a surgery—to a long-term, potentially problematic user? A few weeks? A month?

According to a new study, that transition could take just a matter of days.""
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:08 PM   #42
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Apropos. Apparently opioid addiction can happen in as little as a few days..

with-a-10-day-supply-of-opioids-1-in-5-become-long-term-users
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017...ng-term-users/
Interesting, and scary. I still have some Percocet left over from a prescription last April that is in fact a refill but I never felt the desire to take one when not needed for pain. But perhaps I'm just lucky.

A few weeks ago for some reason I was looking up how long it took to get addicted to prescribed opiods and most of what I saw seemed to indicate ~30 days, taking them continuously for that period. I've never come close to that.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:33 PM   #43
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Interesting, and scary. I still have some Percocet left over from a prescription last April that is in fact a refill but I never felt the desire to take one when not needed for pain. But perhaps I'm just lucky.

A few weeks ago for some reason I was looking up how long it took to get addicted to prescribed opiods and most of what I saw seemed to indicate ~30 days, taking them continuously for that period. I've never come close to that.
I had a friend that used to get high on Vicodin whenever he got his hands on it. I once said to him something to the effect that I never feel high when I take one of those. His response: "I take 4"

So those of us who never get high on these things have probably just never taken a high enough dose.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:05 PM   #44
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As described earlier, I went through two major surgeries and two minor ones in the last few years. I read about people getting addicted from legitimate medicinal use, so did not want to tempt fate. I would take just enough to cut the pain, and no more, and that was only 1/2 the dosage they said I could have, even while in the hospital. I also weaned myself of the drug as soon as I could.

I read that people take alcohol along with the drug to enhance its effect. Knowing that, I would not "try to see what happens". I guess people who push to the limit and experiment are the ones who get themselves hooked. I am too chicken, and see no reason to try either.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:26 PM   #45
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Interesting, and scary. I still have some Percocet left over from a prescription last April that is in fact a refill but I never felt the desire to take one when not needed for pain. But perhaps I'm just lucky.

A few weeks ago for some reason I was looking up how long it took to get addicted to prescribed opiods and most of what I saw seemed to indicate ~30 days, taking them continuously for that period. I've never come close to that.
I was on a high dosage for longer than that. I was told in 2000 from a pain management specialist, "We generally don't see physical withdrawal symptoms until 6-8 (5mgx325) doses daily x 6 weeks of use", this was Oxy.

I believe that was the current thinking at the time. I am sure it's probably been updated.
I can tell you that scenario brought on withdrawal symptoms for me. Honestly I thought I was having a panic attack when it occurred. I described that to him and his advice was to reduce the dosage by 25% every 3-4 days as I could tolerate it. He made it very clear he'd not prescribe more than needed to perform the process. There was no need, I'd been stupid too long.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:03 PM   #46
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I was a public defender and represented thousands of drug addicts and alcoholics over the years, often people with underlying mental illness. Treatment is usually required to get a person clean and sober, and it often doesn't work the first time around...or the second...or the third. But eventually a person may have the "moment of clarity" often cited by people in recovery where they begin to get it.

In the meantime, Alanon can really help family members come to terms with a loved one's addiction.

And just because treatment has failed before doesn't mean it will fail again. Many addicts really do want to get clean and have a normal life. Putting people in jail leads to what we call "institutional remission" and without treatment or at least a sober support network, it usually ends the minute the person leaves jail.
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:21 PM   #47
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The skydiving analogy is an interesting one, for several reasons.

First, skydiving is nowhere near as fatal as getting high on large doses of opioids on a regular basis. Apparently, the fatality rate for skydiving in the U.S. is 8 in one million. Contrast this with deaths due to fentanyl in the state of West Viriginia: 40 out of 100,000. And those 100,000 include all residents, not just fentanyl users, so the rate of death among fentanyl users must be something like 100x higher.

The rush most people get from skydiving is intense and completely exhilarating, probably somewhat like a drug high. But to do an apples-to-apples comparison between that and getting high on fentanyl every day, you'd have to make some adjustments. For example, would anyone with a functioning brain go skydiving on a regular basis if it was widely known that their one and only parachute (no backup) had a failure rate of 1 in 50, or even 1 in 100? This is what I don't get about someone like Prince. He was someone of reasonable intelligence, so he had to know the astronomically high risks of fentanyl, a drug 50 times more powerful than heroin. Yet he took it over and over and over again -- probably steadily increasing the dosage due to tolerance -- surely knowing that he would eventually overdose and die, just based on probability. Truly hard to understand how anyone's mind could work this way.
I don't think skydiving is as deadly as OD'ing on drugs, but still dangerous.

Of course sky-divers don't jump every day or two, if they did, I'll bet the death rates would go up as they became more casual and comfortable with jumping, due to less attention paid to checking stuff.

Personal experience about skydiving, I talked to a boss at work BBQ about the recent death from skydiving in the paper. Turns out about 5 years earlier, he and 4 others would go skydiving.
During the past 5 years:
# 1 went splat. (not his words).
# 2 went splat.
He quit skydiving as felt it was too dangerous.
# 3 went splat and was in the paper for me to mention to him as an interesting story

To me that is a 60% death rate, maybe most folks stop after a few jumps ?

One guy was still jumping, but it's lonely....
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:23 PM   #48
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I had a friend that used to get high on Vicodin whenever he got his hands on it. I once said to him something to the effect that I never feel high when I take one of those. His response: "I take 4"

So those of us who never get high on these things have probably just never taken a high enough dose.
Or you can use a pill crusher/hammer to make it a power and mix it in a booze drink.
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:40 PM   #49
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I think one of the hardest thing is when kids have children and get into drugs. Then it leaves the grandparents in a terrible spot. They have to raise the grandchildren...
That is currently happening on my wife's sister side of the family.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:47 AM   #50
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With all the discussion on opioid addiction what is someone to do if they have chronic pain? I have gone through 5 major surgeries in the last 5-6 years. Spinal nerve damage resulted in a lumbar fusion and right leg peripheral neuropathy with a limp. Rotator cuff surgery on both shoulders required drilling holes in bone to reattach muscle but couldn't help the progressive arthritis.

I have been prescribed oxycodone/hydrocodone that I only use to take the edge off of the chronic pain when it gets too bad. I limit to one pill once or twice a week because of addiction concerns. I've been prescribed just about everything on the market but none work without some undesirable side effects.

Everything for pain management seems to have a physical addiction. Marijuana for pain control is not available in my state and is illegal even though it is not physically addictive (psychologically maybe) so that is not an option.

Discussing opioid addiction helps warn of a dangerous side effect and educate regarding a problem. However, I don't hear of anything being done to effectively address the problem of chronic pain management?

Cheers!
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:37 AM   #51
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My leftover vicodin saved me last week from misery.

My back went out while we were in Arizona. We have no insurance there so had to drive home to Nevada to get to urgent care. That was the longest 3 hours ever!

Urgent care prescribed tramadol and prednisone. I took the tramadol when I got home and got zero pain relief. I had a full bottle of vicodin from surgery 2 years ago that I filled but never used so switched to them. I was worried about taking them but was in so much pain all it did was take the pain level down to a barely tolerable level.

Took them for 3 days then switched back to tramadol but stopped all pain meds on Friday. Seeing a back doctor tomorrow to find out why I have no feeling in my right foot. Afraid I did some nerve damage. Walking with a limp since I can't push off on that toe but at least I'm walking.

I can't imagine the 3 days without the vicodin but I'm afraid of them so stopped as soon as I could.
When I was given a script for tramadol by urgent care, the doc told me that it was one of the easiest to get addicted to, and not to use if not needed.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:28 AM   #52
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Drug OD case: Airline pilot and wife

I think part of the problem with opiods is that some doctors hand them out like candy...

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/prescribing.html
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:12 AM   #53
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With all the discussion on opioid addiction what is someone to do if they have chronic pain? I have gone through 5 major surgeries in the last 5-6 years. Spinal nerve damage resulted in a lumbar fusion and right leg peripheral neuropathy with a limp. Rotator cuff surgery on both shoulders required drilling holes in bone to reattach muscle but couldn't help the progressive arthritis.
...
Discussing opioid addiction helps warn of a dangerous side effect and educate regarding a problem. However, I don't hear of anything being done to effectively address the problem of chronic pain management?

Cheers!
That's why I have been asking questions. My husband has numerous health issues including back, hip and foot pain (hammertoes). He has begun to make several trips back to the doctor for a new prescription for opioids. I don't think the doctor will renew the next time and I can't get him to react to feeling better by using other drugs, when needed, like Tylenol.

On the other hand I don't really see why, if the dose is controlled, people with chronic pain, especially those older than 70 can't be given whatever relieves them. I control his access to the pills, so, unless he only pretends to take those I give him he can't overdose.

I can't afford for him to become addicted since I can't write prescriptions so I have told him I will start reducing the number and I want him to switch to the Tylenol if he needs something. I can't give him NSAIDS since non-aspirin forms interfere with his baby aspirin for transient stroke.

On the other hand, I don't know how to get him to take pain medications when he needs them instead of trying to ward off the pain by taking them just in case he might need them.

We have seen pain experts and he is currently in therapy but, with Parkinson's, there is only so much strength or aerobic exercise can accomplish. He takes medicine for his Parkinson's that replaces dopamine lacking from receptors in his brain. What is the difference? Should we call this an addiction. He certainly needs that next dose and the dosage and frequency increases with progression of the disease.

How else can chronic pain be addressed when no good solutions can be found?
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:54 AM   #54
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I don't think skydiving is as deadly as OD'ing on drugs, but still dangerous.

Of course sky-divers don't jump every day or two, if they did, I'll bet the death rates would go up as they became more casual and comfortable with jumping, due to less attention paid to checking stuff.
Sorry to stray OT here, but I think I disagree with this. As someone gets more and more into a dangerous sport, I would think they would develop an ever more professional attitude towards safety and protocol. If not, I think you'd see the skydiving death rate statistics go way up, since the vast majority of jumps are done by skydiving enthusiasts.

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Personal experience about skydiving, I talked to a boss at work BBQ about the recent death from skydiving in the paper. Turns out about 5 years earlier, he and 4 others would go skydiving.
During the past 5 years:
# 1 went splat. (not his words).
# 2 went splat.
He quit skydiving as felt it was too dangerous.
# 3 went splat and was in the paper for me to mention to him as an interesting story

To me that is a 60% death rate, maybe most folks stop after a few jumps ?

One guy was still jumping, but it's lonely....
Obviously this falls under the category of anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal story involves two young relatives (cousins) who were killed in a terrible car crash years ago. And about 15 years prior, a great uncle of mine was also killed while driving due to DUI. Within our extended family, this gives a "lifetime chance of dying in a car accident" of about 1 in 12, whereas the actual number in the U.S. is 1 in 600. Also, I have to say I find it pretty hard to believe anyone knows of 2 or 3 separate incidents involving multiple people they know personally who have died skydiving, considering there are only about 20 skydiving deaths per year in the entire U.S. out of roughly 3 million individual jumps. This is about as likely as someone personally knowing 2 people who died in 2 separate commercial airliner crashes.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:08 AM   #55
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That's why I have been asking questions. My husband has numerous health issues including back, hip and foot pain (hammertoes). He has begun to make several trips back to the doctor for a new prescription for opioids. I don't think the doctor will renew the next time and I can't get him to react to feeling better by using other drugs, when needed, like Tylenol.

On the other hand I don't really see why, if the dose is controlled, people with chronic pain, especially those older than 70 can't be given whatever relieves them. I control his access to the pills, so, unless he only pretends to take those I give him he can't overdose.

I can't afford for him to become addicted since I can't write prescriptions so I have told him I will start reducing the number and I want him to switch to the Tylenol if he needs something. I can't give him NSAIDS since non-aspirin forms interfere with his baby aspirin for transient stroke.

On the other hand, I don't know how to get him to take pain medications when he needs them instead of trying to ward off the pain by taking them just in case he might need them.

We have seen pain experts and he is currently in therapy but, with Parkinson's, there is only so much strength or aerobic exercise can accomplish. He takes medicine for his Parkinson's that replaces dopamine lacking from receptors in his brain. What is the difference? Should we call this an addiction. He certainly needs that next dose and the dosage and frequency increases with progression of the disease.

How else can chronic pain be addressed when no good solutions can be found?

Let's all not forget, that pain killers serve a very important function in modern medicine.

Some folks regardless of the known dangers decide to abuse the use of them, and later end up taking illegal drugs and they die.

Let's not use the deaths of drug users as an excuse to ban the use from everyone else of medically needed pain killers.

That is a poor reason, and about as stupid as banning auto's since they kill around 35,000 per year (USA) which is about 2->3 times higher than Opioid/heroin deaths (USA)

https://www.drugabuse.gov/related-to...se-death-rates
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:11 AM   #56
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<snip>
Obviously this falls under the category of anecdotal evidence. My anecdotal story involves two young relatives (cousins) who were killed in a terrible car crash years ago. And about 15 years prior, a great uncle of mine was also killed while driving due to DUI. Within our extended family, this gives a "lifetime chance of dying in a car accident" of about 1 in 12, whereas the actual number in the U.S. is 1 in 600. Also, I have to say I find it pretty hard to believe anyone knows of 2 or 3 separate incidents involving multiple people they know personally who have died skydiving, considering there are only about 20 skydiving deaths per year in the entire U.S. out of roughly 3 million individual jumps. This is about as likely as someone personally knowing 2 people who died in 2 separate commercial airliner crashes.
Not so obvious; certainly not evidence; perhaps anecdotal to something.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:13 AM   #57
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Also, I have to say I find it pretty hard to believe anyone knows of 2 or 3 separate incidents involving multiple people they know personally who have died skydiving, considering there are only about 20 skydiving deaths per year in the entire U.S. out of roughly 3 million individual jumps. This is about as likely as someone personally knowing 2 people who died in 2 separate commercial airliner crashes.
Consider:
  • Skydiving is concentrated, dozens of jumps a year, sometimes hundreds a year isn't that strange per person. The average is six, and that includes many one-timers.
  • Skydiving clubs are pretty tightly knit. So the odds are more like two pilots from the same airline company knowing each other, and both crash (Malaysia airlines a recent example).
  • This happened at the same facility, so there may be something wrong with the safety standards or culture there. There might even be a mass-murderer at work - we had a 'parachute-killer' here a while back.


And last yet not least: statistics don't preclude strange odds from happening. Winning the lottery is statistically highly improbable, but it does happen.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:16 AM   #58
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When I had my TKR in December, the Oxycodone did NOTHING for pain. There was no benefit to it at all. The dilaudid on the other hand, that was some good s***! Unfortunately, the prescription was for the oxy, and no more of the good stuff after I left the hospital.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:18 AM   #59
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There is nearly 37,000 members of the United States Parachute Association, though not all of them are active skydivers as sometime people take a year or two off or retire, but remain members.
If one assumes that safety standards at 'try-out' locations (one-time jumpers) are higher due to insurance and commercial implications, it becomes a bit more plausible. Not that I'm trying to torture the data until it confesses, but still.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:25 AM   #60
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How else can chronic pain be addressed when no good solutions can be found?
I know there's stigma and sometimes legal issues, but MMJ is effective for pain.

With the right strain you can be very clear headed. I used a high CBD strain after a bad fall on the ice, pain relief was as good as opiods and my head was clear.

I have read MMJ has been shown to improve the symptoms of some people who have Parkinson's disease as well.

Whatever you choose good luck to you both.
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