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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 11:08 AM   #21
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

i hope they had more provisions then soda and those blue chips!
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 11:14 AM   #22
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl

Instead (I'm guessing), the passengers have the feeling that any minute now, the plane will start moving, everyone will cheer and laugh, and it won't be long before they're sipping Mai Tai's on the beach. They don't want to jinx that scenario by demanding that the plane return to the gate.
Right. And the crew surely didn't know they'd be stuck on the ramp for 11 hours when they pushed back from the gate. It is always a series of events, each happening sequentially. Airplane pushes back, then a storm moves in that prohibits movement on the ramp. As that clears, they are delayed for traffic control reasons (since al the planes that have been waiting to land will get priority, then the takeoffs). Then, there'll be ripple effects at the destination airports--so more waiting while they get an arrival slot time. Dang, look at that ice on the wings--we need to make a pass through the de-icer before we take depart. Well, now we're below min fuel, need more gas. Now there's a storm at our intended destination. Well, this crew is will run ot of legal duty day before we get there, we'll need to change crews. etc, etc.

I don't want Mr Important, who is going to miss his big meeting, to be allowed to get up 45 minutes after pushing back and demand to be let off the plane because he knows he can get another flight. Too bad. Everyone should have full recourse against the airline--after they get off.
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 11:38 AM   #23
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Sorry SamClem, passengers on the tarmac after 45 minutes in stormy conditions should be given the option of rescue. There is NO EXCUSE for what happened. Yes, the dispatcher didn't anticipate the problems but that doesn't relieve them from the obligation to fix the problem.

Any airport prone to this type of weather should have mobile stairs usable under those conditions.
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 12:02 PM   #24
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy888
Lets see 11 hours sitting on a plane at JFK airport yesterday and the PATRIOT ACT law says that you cannot leave the airplane once it leaves the gate. Punishment is 20 YEARS in federal prison!!!!!!!!
Newguy, I think you’re seeing fascist PATRIOT act boogiemen.

This kind of thing has been going on for years, long before 9/11, and has nothing to do with the PATRIOT act.

Jet Blue deserves the blame for this, but they’re not the only airline to do this kind of thing. A friend of mine from high school got stuck on the ground in Detroit for nine hours (long before 9/11) on a Northwest flight. The problem then is no doubt the same problem that Jet Blue had. Bad weather starts causing delays, and unless an airport is closed, the airlines make their own decisions about continuing flight operations. Busy airports and airlines that have cut costs to the bone mean that they often have to either cancel a flight because of the possibility that an airport will be closed, or gamble that the airport will stay open and board the passengers in order to clear the gate for the next flight.

My friend told me about his experience with Northwest and why it happened. It was a lot like Samclem described, a cascading series of events that mushroomed into a giant foul-up. The airline kept flying even though other airlines had already decided that a snowstorm in Detroit was going to cause major delays. They wound up landing flights there only to find taxiways were unsafe to move on, and other aircraft that were unable to leave were blocking all the gates. Even if they could get a plane to the terminal there was no open gates to unload passengers. By the time Northwest realized how screwed up everything was on the ground at Detroit they had a lot of passengers who had already spent hours sitting on the ground. Then they were stuck with too few employees in Detroit to organize a rapid and effective “rescue” effort, and not enough busses or portable stairs to go out and get people off the planes in an efficient manner. From listening to the Jet Blue CEO last night, it sounds like they did just about the same thing as Northwest did.
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 12:03 PM   #25
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
Sorry SamClem, passengers on the tarmac after 45 minutes in stormy conditions should be given the option of rescue. There is NO EXCUSE for what happened. Yes, the dispatcher didn't anticipate the problems but that doesn't relieve them from the obligation to fix the problem.

Any airport prone to this type of weather should have mobile stairs usable under those conditions.
There's no excuse, but there's surely an explanation. As you'll appreciate, an airplane isn't a bus. It's not just a matter of opening the airstair and letting a passenger off. For example, in some instances one or more engines will need to be shut down on the port side before disembarking passengers. Shuttting down/restarting an engine is another checklist procedure. Then, you've got the problem with Mr Important's checked luggage--does he get it back? How long will that take? Or, does it go on without him? Does the airline have to buy him new suits? Oh, now it's been 2 hours and Ms Important decides she wants to get off. Back to square one.

Also, I'm fairly sure it is illegal to allow passengers to walk across the ramp when lightning is within 5 miles of the airport. Or to allow ramp crews to drive a truck out there to get them.

I don't know all the particulars about this flight, but there's no doubt that several mistakes were made. Several hundred other flights were executd withput problem. This falls into the category of "oops--well, what can we do to prevent a similar probem in the future, and how many free flight coupons should we issue"
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 12:35 PM   #26
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there is no excuse. I definitely empathize with the passengers, since I have flown 2 times fairly recently, from Pittsburgh PA to San Diego CA and from Pitts to Hawaii. Our flight to San Diego was sent to Phoenix AZ due to fog problems and there were not a lot of happy campers.

If I were stuck on an interstate for that long of time, I am sure that I would have had to go also. You do what you gotta do sometimes.

If I am ever stuck on an airplane, I get dibs on SamClem being the passenger beside me!

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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 12:56 PM   #27
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamer
. . .If I am ever stuck on an airplane, I get dibs on SamClem being the passenger beside me!

You and samclem can sit there for 11 hours if you want. I want TromboneAl next to me starting the chant: "WE WANT OFF! WE WANT OFF! WE WANT OFF!"

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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 01:08 PM   #28
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

In the past I flew often enough to earn the 'gold' status and lots of upgrades. Now I just fly regularly. I have had flights land in Spokane when Seattle or Portland closed. Never have I been subjected to poor planning and inconsiderate treatment such as what has happened to passengers much too often in recent years.

Mr. Important's needs are not superior to the needs of children and the infirm. If s/he is that important they should be on a private aircraft (which would probably be grounded under those conditions in any case). I think I could put together a set of requirements for dispatch that would prevent this. The first would be that in foul weather the gate is only for active loading or unloading only, not for parking. Parked planes should not stay at the gate if there is a parade of aircraft on the taxiway. Aircraft should not be loaded with passengers when aircraft are backed up on the runway for reasons of weather. And I am just starting ....

Were I on that stranded aircraft I would be calling everyone who would make the airline's life miserable, and leading the sing-along. Threats of arrest by Homeland Security don't concern me at all. The trial would be a gas...
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 02:18 PM   #29
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
A lot of homeland security money went into beefing up police forces in airports. Now you have all these gung-ho cops with nothing to do but arrest anyone who displays frustration.
The really sick thing is that all this is essentially a ruse to make air travelers feel
safe. So the more police officers harrassing travelers, the safer everyone feels.
Security experts will tell you this is the case, and that if terrorists really want to
bring an airplane down, they will. The terrorists have already won, folks. Our
nation is devolving into a police state. Our "leaders" are giving away the goodwill
and moral high ground that his country has built up over the last 200 years or so,
through policies such as ignoring or ridiculing our allies, invading soveriegn nations,
and torturing prisoners.

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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 02:23 PM   #30
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bssc
You must be able to drive to Hawaii. After all, it has Interstates.
Yep, just take the western exit for the Long Beach Tunnel.

Pay attention to the signs that say "Last gas for 2500 miles!"

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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 03:24 PM   #31
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Airplane pushes back, then a storm moves in that prohibits movement on the ramp.
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know someone will! ;-D ...but I read somewhere that a plane is counted as departing "on time" if it pushes back from the gate at or before the appointed hour. Is that so?

The article was criticizing "on time" gaming by the airlines, who rush to "push back" on time whether there's any chance of taking off or not.

Maybe if this on-time measurement were changed to account for weather / other delays, it might alleviate some of the rush to cast off without a clear runway. Then they could LET folks back off if need be -- the engines wouldn't be fired up, the gangway (or whatever you call it) wouldn't be pulled back, etc. etc.

'Course if you do let them off you've got to herd the cats back ON again...

Glad I don't have to figure this out.
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 04:02 PM   #32
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
There's no excuse, but there's surely an explanation. As you'll appreciate, an airplane isn't a bus. It's not just a matter of opening the airstair and letting a passenger off. For example, in some instances one or more engines will need to be shut down on the port side before disembarking passengers. Shuttting down/restarting an engine is another checklist procedure. Then, you've got the problem with Mr Important's checked luggage--does he get it back? How long will that take? Or, does it go on without him? Does the airline have to buy him new suits? Oh, now it's been 2 hours and Ms Important decides she wants to get off. Back to square one.

Also, I'm fairly sure it is illegal to allow passengers to walk across the ramp when lightning is within 5 miles of the airport. Or to allow ramp crews to drive a truck out there to get them.

I don't know all the particulars about this flight, but there's no doubt that several mistakes were made. Several hundred other flights were executd withput problem. This falls into the category of "oops--well, what can we do to prevent a similar probem in the future, and how many free flight coupons should we issue"
From people that have told me there were stuck for hours... the engines were off... which caused the cabin to get hot (it was summer where they were)... and IF they were running the engines... why would they have all this extra fuel on board to idle for 11 hours and THEN fly to their destination??

and the toilets on this flight (jetblue) were already full, what were you going to do Pass around the empty water bottles and tell people use these
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 04:08 PM   #33
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know someone will! ;-D ...but I read somewhere that a plane is counted as departing "on time" if it pushes back from the gate at or before the appointed hour. Is that so?

The article was criticizing "on time" gaming by the airlines, who rush to "push back" on time whether there's any chance of taking off or not.

Maybe if this on-time measurement were changed to account for weather / other delays, it might alleviate some of the rush to cast off without a clear runway. Then they could LET folks back off if need be -- the engines wouldn't be fired up, the gangway (or whatever you call it) wouldn't be pulled back, etc. etc.

'Course if you do let them off you've got to herd the cats back ON again...

Glad I don't have to figure this out.
But you also have the arrival time to consider... so it might have 'left' on time, it does not arrive on time...

Maybe one of the pilots can tell us... I had heard that you had to 'get in line'... so if you stayed at the gate, you were not in line to take off... so you push back and wait and get number 54 or wait the 4 or 5 hours when things start to take off again and get number 132... It seems airlines choose 54 no matter what it means to their paying customers..

AND REMEMBER... if you are in the plane, you are not going to another carrier that day... if they get lucky they don't lose you.. because we 'forgive' bad service easily...
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 04:11 PM   #34
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Here's one view on airline treatment of passengers.
http://www.thetravelinsider.info/200...llofrights.htm

and another:

http://novaspivack.typepad.com/nova_...engers_bi.html
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 04:52 PM   #35
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Three hours on the tarmac Two hours too long.

It is one thing if the weather is unexpected, tornado alerts come to mind. With modern weather reporting systems there is no reason to confine passengers on the tarmac.

I remember once, when I made a flight by seconds, telling the crew that I needed to pee as I entered the cabin. They said sorry I would have to wait. I waited until we were airborne 10 minutes and the pilot hadn't turned off the seat belt light. I turned on the passenger call button and told the the stew I needed to go immediately, she said no, I replied that if they didn't permit me to use the head they would need to clean the seat - her choice. I got to go.

I have no compunction about getting down to the core issue. I have stared down alleged Mafia family members, and staff of a congressman. The Mafia was nicer.
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 05:25 PM   #36
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brat
Three hours on the tarmac Two hours too long.

It is one thing if the weather is unexpected, tornado alerts come to mind. With modern weather reporting systems there is no reason to confine passengers on the tarmac.

I remember once, when I made a flight by seconds, telling the crew that I needed to pee as I entered the cabin. They said sorry I would have to wait. I waited until we were airborne 10 minutes and the pilot hadn't turned off the seat belt light. I turned on the passenger call button and told the the stew I needed to go immediately, she said no, I replied that if they didn't permit me to use the head they would need to clean the seat - her choice. I got to go.

I have no compunction about getting down to the core issue. I have stared down alleged Mafia family members, and staff of a congressman. The Mafia was nicer.

Oh man you are on my wavelength.

The real issue is how the sheeple in america have no b@lls to rise up and make a stand.
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 05:45 PM   #37
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

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Originally Posted by newguy888
The real issue is how the sheeple in america have no b@lls to rise up and make a stand.
Aint got balls, but with old age came a good set of boobs!
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 05:55 PM   #38
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Just read a post by this guy... Managed to get stuck 10 hours on one JB flight, then 6 hours on the one thereafter.

http://tinyurl.com/2544j6

Unconscionable.
They had to break into the water supply over the objections of the flight crew.
People only started getting visibly antsy when the TV went out. :
The guy jokes about praying to Mecca to see how quick they'd get him off the plane.. he didn't, more's the pity.. that would have been a fun experiment.

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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!
Old 02-16-2007, 07:30 PM   #39
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Re: Dumb Americans and let the arrows fly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
Just read a post by this guy... Managed to get stuck 10 hours on one JB flight, then 6 hours on the one thereafter.

http://tinyurl.com/2544j6

Unconscionable.
They had to break into the water supply over the objections of the flight crew.
People only started getting visibly antsy when the TV went out. :
The guy jokes about praying to Mecca to see how quick they'd get him off the plane.. he didn't, more's the pity.. that would have been a fun experiment.

Wow, that is inspiring. The way the term "hero" is bandied about in America
today, to hear about someone who has the courage to stick his neck out and
fight stupidity and arrogance the way this guy did is something. Thanks for sharing !

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