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E15 gas warning
Old 01-11-2013, 11:38 AM   #1
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E15 gas warning

This story popped up on a few news sites today. I thought this was already known, but maybe not. Using E15 fuel in non approved vehicle can void your warranty and/or damage your vehicle.

http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/...ing-on-e15-gas
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:53 AM   #2
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This warning probably applies to older small motors as well, like lawnmowers, boats, etc.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:38 PM   #3
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More details (and partly debunked) here: www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/e15.asp

Mostly don't want to use it in small tanks (motorcycles, lawn mowers, etc.), car or truck should be fine.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:02 PM   #4
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More details (and partly debunked) here: www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/e15.asp

Mostly don't want to use it in small tanks (motorcycles, lawn mowers, etc.), car or truck should be fine.
Unless you have a turbocharged engine. I can't use e15 in my F150.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:36 PM   #5
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More details (and partly debunked) here: www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/e15.asp

Mostly don't want to use it in small tanks (motorcycles, lawn mowers, etc.), car or truck should be fine.
Doesn't seem to debunk as much as it is a conflict between EPA and auto companies. My owners manual specifically says not to use E15.
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:16 AM   #6
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I have use E15 in my cars, chevy trucks, snowblowers, weed wackers, lawn mowers, and chain saws since it was introduced. I have never had a problem because of it. my BIL uses strictly straight gas as he says he gets better mileage with it. E15 gets less mileage, but is cheaper than regular gas, so it is kind of a toss up there. my experience with it is, use whatever you like it makes no difference except price. When was the last time you went in for a warranty repair and they ask what kind of gas you were using?
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:02 AM   #7
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The ethanol makers keep their prices competitive on a cost per mile basis. I like that ethanol is cleaner in the gas lines. It also increases my mpg in wet weather. My guess is that the ethanol mixes with enough water to make a tiny amount of steam which expands more than gas on combustion. It could be crack-pot science, too.
The bad press of ethanol being an energy drain, that it takes more energy to make than it produces, is junk science. The funding for the studies came from oil companies and has about as much validity as the "smoking is good for you" ads from cigarette companies.

Caveat, I make the stuff... and drink the stuff.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:43 AM   #8
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The ethanol makers keep their prices competitive on a cost per mile basis.
No, it is the subsidies that keep the pump price down (the consumer is still paying a high price for ethanol, but indirectly in the form of other taxes, or increased debt to pay the subsidies).

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I like that ethanol is cleaner in the gas lines. It also increases my mpg in wet weather. My guess is that the ethanol mixes with enough water to make a tiny amount of steam which expands more than gas on combustion. It could be crack-pot science, too.
I suspect you are right with the 'crackpot science' remark. Some engines do use water injection, but they use the water injection to reduce knocking so they can run higher compression ratios in those engines. The engine needs to be designed to take advantage of it.

Even if the water in a rain storm helped mpg - I doubt 10% ethanol has any effect - it's only exposed to the air for a fraction of a second as it travels from injector to the combustion chamber - a few inches in a fast moving air stream. I can't imagine it absorbs any moisture in that time. And so what if it does - that moisture was headed to the combustion chamber anyhow. What difference does it make if it is in the ethanol, or in the air?


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The bad press of ethanol being an energy drain, that it takes more energy to make than it produces, is junk science. The funding for the studies came from oil companies and has about as much validity as the "smoking is good for you" ads from cigarette companies.
Ummm, do a little googling and you'll see there are plenty of environmental groups against ethanol as fuel. Even that guy that is the symbol of anti-oil, Al Gore has come out against it (conveniently, after he was for it to get votes from farmers):

Al Gore: I Was Wrong About Ethanol : TreeHugger

Quote:
Al Gore says his support for corn-based ethanol subsidies while serving as vice president was a mistake that had more to do with his desire to cultivate farm votes in the 2000 presidential election than with what was good for the environment.

"It is not a good policy to have these massive subsidies for first-generation ethanol," Gore said at a green energy conference in Athens, Greece ... On reflection, Gore said the energy conversion ratios -- how much energy is produced in the process -- "are at best very small." "One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee," he said, "and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for president."
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:40 AM   #9
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No, it is the subsidies that keep the pump price down (the consumer is still paying a high price for ethanol, but indirectly in the form of other taxes, or increased debt to pay the subsidies).

I suspect you are right with the 'crackpot science' remark. Some engines do use water injection, but they use the water injection to reduce knocking so they can run higher compression ratios in those engines. The engine needs to be designed to take advantage of it.

Even if the water in a rain storm helped mpg - I doubt 10% ethanol has any effect - it's only exposed to the air for a fraction of a second as it travels from injector to the combustion chamber - a few inches in a fast moving air stream. I can't imagine it absorbs any moisture in that time. And so what if it does - that moisture was headed to the combustion chamber anyhow. What difference does it make if it is in the ethanol, or in the air?

Ummm, do a little googling and you'll see there are plenty of environmental groups against ethanol as fuel. Even that guy that is the symbol of anti-oil, Al Gore has come out against it (conveniently, after he was for it to get votes from farmers):

Al Gore: I Was Wrong About Ethanol : TreeHugger

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I have watched commodity prices of ethanol move in lock step with gasoline prices for years. Market pricing means that the big market seller (oil) sets the price. The little guy is guaranteed to sell out of all that he can make, as long as he keeps his price under the big seller.If last month, the big seller tripled his price. Does the little seller keep his price the same, or triple his price too?

As for subsidies, calculating ethanol taxes as liquor, then counting the break from those prices reduced to fuel taxes as federal subsidies is disingenuous to say the least. BTW, farm states throughout history have payed more into the Fed coffers than they receive back. Can the same be said of a large oil drilling state? This falls into regional political bashing but I wanted to point out a different regional political view.

Ethanol sold for fuel is denatured and sold with a small amount of water listed. It leaves the factory as 200 proof quality, but it picks up water by condensation and absorbed from the air, in shipping. It is a slight amount of water, but water expands 1500 times when it turns to steam. My DW's Prius measures fuel consumption continuously, and I have notices a consistent 2-3 mpg gain. This helps offset some of alcohol's lower mpg. Just my personal observation, hence the caveat "crackpot science".

I realize that many environmental groups believe that ethanol is bad. I haven't found any independent research that isn't based the original biased research. IMO, the energy loss argument is urban legend, especially with fourth generation ethanol plants.

Ethanol is made from converted corn starch from #2 dent field corn. This corn is only grown as livestock feed. If field corn is fed as feed, the starch isn't digested, but is passed through in manure. Ethanol producers remove this potentially wasted starch, add more nutrients such as calcium and B complex from the beer making residue to the starch-less feed, and resell this better feed to livestock farmers. This is the efficiency that is ignored by environmentalists. As for the starch, it is made into ethanol.

To be clear, I believe that climate change is happening. I like, really like the internet, and admire Mr Gore's early support in funding that made the internet possible. However, a politician swaying his view on ethanol, depending on his audience does not convince me of anything except that that view is popular to that audience
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Old 01-13-2013, 12:10 PM   #10
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devans0 - you are wrong on almost every point.

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As for subsidies, calculating ethanol taxes as liquor, then counting the break from those prices reduced to fuel taxes as federal subsidies is disingenuous to say the least.
And it is disingenuous to infer that is what I (or anyone) said. The ethanol subsidy is not the lack of collecting liquor tax - it isn't sold as liquor, so that tax is not due, just like it is not due on the denatured alcohol I buy for my home workshop. There are subsidies and tariffs to reduce competition from countries that can make it more efficient than we can. They are outright subsidies, paid per gallon blended. See

Ethanol fuel in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or google on your own.


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BTW, farm states throughout history have payed more into the Fed coffers than they receive back. Can the same be said of a large oil drilling state?
I don't know, I'd have to look it up - but it's a straw-man argument. Even if it's true, it doesn't change the fact they got a subsidy for ethanol-fuel.

Oh and BTW, after a bit of googling, I see it's not true.

Is Your State A Net Giver or Taker of Federal Taxes? | The Big Picture

Iowa, the corn capital rcv $1.31 for every $1 paid in fed tax.

Iowa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Iowa is the nation's largest producer of ethanol and corn

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Originally Posted by devans0 View Post
Ethanol sold for fuel is denatured and sold with a small amount of water listed. It leaves the factory as 200 proof quality, but it picks up water by condensation and absorbed from the air, in shipping. It is a slight amount of water, but water expands 1500 times when it turns to steam. My DW's Prius measures fuel consumption continuously, and I have notices a consistent 2-3 mpg gain. This helps offset some of alcohol's lower mpg. Just my personal observation, hence the caveat "crackpot science".
Regardless of the science or reasons why, if this were true, don't you think ethanol producers would make the claim that you get improved mpg due to using free water in the air? But they don't, because they know ethanol has a lower energy content per gallon than gasoline. Period.


[edit/add] - But to address the science a bit, the energy to make that water expand to steam would come from the fuel. There is no free lunch.



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Ethanol is made from converted corn starch from #2 dent field corn. This corn is only grown as livestock feed.
OK, partial credit on the detail, not the point you were trying to make. Yes, #2 dent. But it is also used for human consumption - corn meal, corn syrup, corn oil, corn starch, etc.

Corn

Quote:
From 12 to 15 percent of the crop is processed for starch, corn sugar, syrup, corn oil, corn-oil meal, gluten feed and meal, whiskey, alcohol, and for direct human food in the form of corn flakes, corn meal, hominy and grits.
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If field corn is fed as feed, the starch isn't digested, but is passed through in manure.
Amazing. Look at the nutrient content in corn - ~ 85% of the calorie content is from starch. I guess those farmers are really stupid, trying to fatten up cattle in feedlots on corn, when it just goes right through all four stomachs (which can break down cellulose - much tougher than starch!) as waste. What a waste!

Oh, and just in case my memory failed me, and that wasn't corn my Dad fed our cattle (maybe it was left over Halloween Candy-Corn?), here it is from some Canadian researchers:

http://www.agromedia.ca/ADM_Articles...nt/lactose.pdf
Quote:
Starch degradation in the rumen

The primary energy source for the high-producing cow is starch, derived mainly from cereal silages and grains. As suggested in figure 1, starch is composed of long chains of glucose molecules. Depending on the source, level of intake and method of processing, from 42 to 94% of the starch consumed can be degraded in the rumen (see article 1B3).

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Ethanol producers remove this potentially wasted starch, add more nutrients such as calcium and B complex from the beer making residue to the starch-less feed, and resell this better feed to livestock farmers. This is the efficiency that is ignored by environmentalists.
Sure, there is some food quality left after removing the starch, ~ 15%. So it is used as feed, but 85% of the calorie content is gone. I don't think that is ignored in the calculations, but I've provided enough links, your turn if you want to challenge that.


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I have watched commodity prices of ethanol move in lock step with gasoline prices for years. Market pricing means that the big market seller (oil) sets the price.
No. Market pricing means that the big market seller and buyer come to an agreement on the price when they make a transaction.

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The little guy is guaranteed to sell out of all that he can make, as long as he keeps his price under the big seller. If last month, the big seller tripled his price. Does the little seller keep his price the same, or triple his price too?
Every seller tries to get the maximum price for his product. What's that got to do with anything?

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Old 01-13-2013, 09:42 PM   #11
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"And it is disingenuous to infer that is what I (or anyone) said."

I didn't mean to aim my snark at you. I have much respect for you, and I am sorry. I must go, but I didn't want ot leave an unintended insult hanging.

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Old 01-14-2013, 09:30 AM   #12
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/snip/ BTW, farm states throughout history have payed more into the Fed coffers than they receive back. Can the same be said of a large oil drilling state? This falls into regional political bashing but I wanted to point out a different regional political view.

/snip/

Texas (which if memory serves me is the biggest producer of oil, but I could be wrong) has consistently paid in a LOT more taxes than they got back... and when you convert to actual dollars, that is a lot of money...


PS... looks like my memory is good...

The top six oil-producing states - Business - Oil & energy | NBC News
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:58 PM   #13
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"And it is disingenuous to infer that is what I (or anyone) said."

I didn't mean to aim my snark at you. I have much respect for you, and I am sorry. I must go, but I didn't want ot leave an unintended insult hanging.

To all: Take care, life can be fleeting.
I didn't take it as an insult/snarky at all, no need to apologize - I was just trying to address the issues.

My response was gruff, but only because I there were so many issues I wanted to address - to couch each of them in some kid-glove wrapper just would have taken too many words. Nothing personal intended.

I'd be honestly interested if you or anyone could refute my points - all I'm trying to do is learn. I think they were reasonably well researched, but of course there is conflicting info all over the web, maybe I got some of it wrong.

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Old 01-14-2013, 07:34 PM   #14
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Texas (which if memory serves me is the biggest producer of oil, but I could be wrong) has consistently paid in a LOT more taxes than they got back... and when you convert to actual dollars, that is a lot of money...


PS... looks like my memory is good...
2010 data - maybe not a LOT more recently, but definitely more:

Is Your State A Net Giver or Taker of Federal Taxes? | The Big Picture
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:18 AM   #15
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2010 data - maybe not a LOT more recently, but definitely more:

Is Your State A Net Giver or Taker of Federal Taxes? | The Big Picture


It used to be worse.... but we had a couple of Presidents that are Texans and some of the Congress leaders over the last few decades which helped bring it higher...

Look at California... they got a great deal (but I was surprised they were in the top 6 oil producing states)...
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:16 PM   #16
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I'd be honestly interested if you or anyone could refute my points - all I'm trying to do is learn. I think they were reasonably well researched, but of course there is conflicting info all over the web, maybe I got some of it wrong.

-ERD50
There is so much conflicting information that is obviously biased in both directions, it is hard to know. Even well researched articles get it very wrong. Data is suspect, politics, and vested interest skew our measuring sticks.
Internal company documents prove that the public perception is wrong, but vested interest bias makes their views suspect. In the trenches, the view is that it is viable if companies are well run.

The tests for viability will come soon, since the subsidies have expired. With record corn prices and cheap oil, the margins for that industry are thin. We will see if thirty years of subsidies will be enough to continue that route to protect American energy needs.

Through history, the other players in oil have played predatory and monopolistic practices. The boom-bust cycles of gas shortages and surpluses had the net effect keeping America dependent on energy. My own crackpot view is that there are no co-incidences. Cycles were too well timed to coincide with putting alternative energy sources out of business while they were still fledgling industries. Then, shortages would suddenly hit, and the oil players would gouge until the world was in a recession. Those cycles may be co-incidental but after three cycles in my working life, I became jaded. The oil cartel is not our friend.

If my conspiracy scenario is correct, gas prices will be low for a second year. Drought may continue this year, (they come in two year cycles, many times). With no subsidies and two years of terrible business conditions, would be a fantastic time for another "shortage" to occur. It would clean out So. Dakota drilling and natural gas in autos, too. Two years from now? Buy a bicycle.

I have worked in the grain milling industry for virtually all of my working life. I do not think that corn for alcohol is the way to go, but it is a step in a possible right direction. Cellulosic and/or algae will someday be necessary for alcohol production IMO. Every efficiency that can be in place for manufacturing distillation will make the day that the oil runs low easier to take. It would be a matter of weeks to convert if a corn to switch grass manufacturing conversion were to take place. Distillation is still distillation for either.

TexasProud: Sorry I disparaged your state. I didn't mean to mess with Texas. BTW, I wasn't thinking of Texas.
Everyone is proud of their home and don't like outsiders knocking their home. I should never have made that crack. Defending one tax loophole by pointing at another really means that both need trimming.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:17 PM   #17
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It used to be worse.... but we had a couple of Presidents that are Texans and some of the Congress leaders over the last few decades which helped bring it higher...

Look at California... they got a great deal (but I was surprised they were in the top 6 oil producing states)...

Look at DC!!!
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:38 PM   #18
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There is so much conflicting information that is obviously biased in both directions, it is hard to know.

....

The tests for viability will come soon, since the subsidies have expired.
Agree with the first line, that's why discussions with people with different views can help sort it out.

As to the subsidies, yes, they are being eliminated, but...

Easing U.S. ethanol mandate would help prevent food crisis: UN | Reuters

Quote:
Under the five-year-old Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS), U.S. fuel companies are required to ensure that 9 percent of their gasoline pools are made up of ethanol this year, which means converting some 40 percent of the corn crop into the biofuel.
they still have a 'mandate' in there - so instead of a price subsidy, I guess we could say there is a 'demand subsidy'. That means we still won't see if ethanol is viable in the market place.

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Old 01-16-2013, 01:36 PM   #19
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Agree with the first line, that's why discussions with people with different views can help sort it out.

As to the subsidies, yes, they are being eliminated, but...

Easing U.S. ethanol mandate would help prevent food crisis: UN | Reuters



they still have a 'mandate' in there - so instead of a price subsidy, I guess we could say there is a 'demand subsidy'. That means we still won't see if ethanol is viable in the market place.

-ERD50
I do see sharp cutbacks on the plants that are dry grinds. They ONLY have two products, (feed and ethanol). When I was talking about a forcing out of the small players by oil being dumped on the market, this is where it is showing up. Several have already gone bankrupt, others are grimly holding on.

What that tells me is that mandated buying will not go far to buoy the industry, or cost very much compared to gas. My personal mileages indicated a slight break to E10. Other states will have different outcomes with transport and gas tax differences. Difference in cost to taxpayers will be largely bookkeeping IMO.

For investing purposes, the ethanol/syrup/starch makers are counter cyclical doing great when the rest of the markets are doing terrible and dragging when the market is doing well.

I have been looking for a retirement hobby... Moonshiner?
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:31 PM   #20
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I do see sharp cutbacks on the plants that are dry grinds.

...

I have been looking for a retirement hobby... Moonshiner?
I was going to google "dry grinds", then thought better of it

OK, so I included plants and ethanol in the search. I guess I don't follow you - it sounds like the same corn product goes in, dry grinding is just that - mechanical grinding of the dry kernels. Wet grinding is, well..

Quote:
Wet milling involves steeping the corn for up to 48 hours to assist in separating the parts of the corn kernel. Processing the slurry separates the germ from the rest of the kernel, which is processed further to separate the fiber, starch, and gluten. The fiber and corn gluten become components of animal feed while the starch is fermented to become ethanol, corn starch, or corn syrup (Renewable Fuels Association, 2005).
There was a story of a guy that collected the waste tank from a nearby bar (they dump all the glasses there before washing). The mix of beer, ice, mixed drinks, etc yielded ~ 10% alcohol, and he distilled it to fuel his car.

I'm not sure of the licensing required, or if he just flew under the radar, since he did denature it (at least avoiding liquor tax). It's not a solution for large scale, but pretty interesting for an adventurous individual. Couldn't find a link, but a lot of hits for "a man walks into a bar" jokes

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