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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-04-2005, 03:00 PM   #21
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
Our culture encourages the individual to blame himself for failure.
Does this mean that more Americans are starting to take responsibility and be accountable?!?
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-04-2005, 06:09 PM   #22
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

No, it means more people are feeling like failures.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-04-2005, 06:16 PM   #23
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

I guess I can throw out my own sweeping generalization by saying that almost nobody I know of accepts any responsibility for their own problems or actions. Biggest problem on earth as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-04-2005, 08:27 PM   #24
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

I think the man is keeping us down.....
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-04-2005, 09:17 PM   #25
 
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Originally Posted by th
I guess I can throw out my own sweeping generalization by saying that almost nobody I know of accepts any responsibility for their own problems or actions.* Biggest problem on earth as far as I'm concerned.
I really hope you don't have to unlearn this the hard way. You have very little control of things, in the grand scheme of life. You're a nice guy, and I'd hate to see anything bad happen to you.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-05-2005, 04:54 AM   #26
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
I really hope you don't have to unlearn this the hard way. You have very little control of things, in the grand scheme of life. You're a nice guy, and I'd hate to see anything bad happen to you.
Man, this is interesting. I agree with both of you. First, I agree with th that
people not accepting responsibility for themselves and their actions is one of the
"world's greatest problems" . Maybe not "the greatest" but close. I also agree
with C-T about not having as much control as most of us think. But, the implication of the Cut-Throat post is that we have NO control. Now, I am a control freak
(you could ask DW) But, I recognize that lots of stuff is happening and will
happen that I have absolutely no control over. Soooooooo, I am more in the
th camp, in this sense; bad things will happen no matter how prepared/smart/
lucky/nice/law-abiding/etc. you are. That's life. Just don't whine about it
or blame others for your situation (victim mentality - rampant in society today).
All whiners need to be boiled in their own juices. I assume th agrees. C-T
thinks we need to nurture and love them because some things out of their
control caused them harm or undue angst.. I think they should suck it up and get a life.
Tough love?

JG
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-05-2005, 12:52 PM   #27
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
I really hope you don't have to unlearn this the hard way. You have very little control of things, in the grand scheme of life. You're a nice guy, and I'd hate to see anything bad happen to you.
I think a lot of stuff can happen to you. I think a lot of what happens is because you did or didnt do something. I also think you can make things happen if you really want to. Maybe a little luck is needed.

Believe me, plenty of things out of my control have 'happened to me'. I could have folded up or blamed them for why I didnt make it.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-05-2005, 10:21 PM   #28
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

Does anyone ever worry that ER is somehow 'part of the problem' in being at the vanguard of a movement toward decline of work ethic in the U.S.? I know most/all of us worked our tails off for 20 years or more to get to ER, but after that, we are looking a lot like Europeans, only self-funded.

At a personal level I have zero problem with that. But might people some day look at early retirees and say, "they are the ones that showed us so vividly that work was a drag, and now that we all understand that, and have come to agree with it, the ground has been sufficiently softened that the Indians or Chinese are eating our lunch.

How long can we safely sit in our foxhole, and feel 'whatever we are doing is entirely our affair, and the country will never be harmed by it'.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-05-2005, 10:42 PM   #29
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Originally Posted by ESRBob
Does anyone ever worry that ER is somehow 'part of the problem' in being at the vanguard of a movement toward decline of work ethic in the U.S.?
Yes; we are doomed. Not only will there be fewer workers to support the boomers retirement, but most of those new workers are lazy. I suspect that our "embrace your laziness" movement will be short-lived, and a strong work ethic will be in vogue once again -- by necessity.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-05-2005, 11:21 PM   #30
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Originally Posted by Eagle43
. . .Forgive me for making a blunt and obvious point, but events in Western Europe are slowly discrediting large swaths of American liberalism.

Most of the policy ideas advocated by American liberals . . . .
From the first sentence this article in nonsense. Using events in Western Europe to discredit American liberalism . . .? Why not use events among penguin populations in Antarctica to discredit American liberalism? It makes just about as much sense. This country has been moving steadily right for about a decade or more. And things keep getting worse. We don't need to discredit American liberalism. American liberalism is nearly dead. What we need to do is find out what American neo-cons are doing to destroy our economy and reputation around the world, and stop them.

The second sentence starts out the way so many of the articles I read from the right today start out. There is an implied assertion that American liberalism is advocating that the US adapt several policies that exist in Europe. What is this assertion based on? Which American liberal is advocating this? What exactly is that American liberal saying that leads these authors to conclude this? And why would we care if an American liberal were advocating anything? The neo-cons are in power. They are making all the calls -- not this mythical and mysterious American liberal.

Honestly, the American neo-con today is nothing but an evil and dangerous demagogue. The American neo-con is in power -- in the House, in the Senate, in the White House and in the Courts. The American neo-con is running large parts of the American Press. So why is the American neo-con still obsessed with blaming the American liberal for everything they don't like in the world? What a steaming croc of bull. . . The neo-cons in this country have abandoned any semblance of truth and reason.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 06:13 AM   #31
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Originally Posted by - SG
* From the first sentence this article in nonsense.* Using events in Western Europe to discredit American liberalism . . .?* Why not use events among penguin populations in Antarctica to discredit American liberalism?* It makes just about as much sense.* This country has been moving steadily right for about a decade or more.* And things keep getting worse.* We don't need to discredit American liberalism.* American liberalism is nearly dead.* What we need to do is find out what American neo-cons are doing to destroy our economy and reputation around the world, and stop them.

The second sentence starts out the way so many of the articles I read from the right today start out.* There is an implied assertion that American liberalism is advocating that the US adapt several policies that exist in Europe.* What is this assertion based on?* Which American liberal is advocating this?* What exactly is that American liberal saying that leads these authors to conclude this?* And why would we care if an American liberal were advocating anything?* The neo-cons are in power.* They are making all the calls -- not this mythical and mysterious American liberal.

Honestly, the American neo-con today is nothing but an evil and dangerous demagogue.* The American neo-con is in power -- in the House, in the Senate, in the White House and in the Courts.* The American neo-con is running large parts of the American Press.* So why is the American neo-con still obsessed with blaming the American liberal for everything they don't like in the world?* What a steaming croc of bull. . . The neo-cons in this country have abandoned any semblance of truth and reason.*
I don't think anyone needs to discredit "American liberalism"
(or any other kind for that matter). It will (has?) done that on it's own.
However, in an "entitlement based" economy/society and the never-
ending clamor for womb to tomb government protection (okay, add
in voter ignorance which I find pandemic) and you will have liberalism/
socialism/big brotherism in some form forever. "Brave New World" here we come. Just my opinion.
I could be wrong. Rarely happens though

JG
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 06:34 AM   #32
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Originally Posted by wabmester
Yes;* we are doomed.* *Not only will there be fewer workers to support the boomers retirement, but most of those new workers are lazy.* *I suspect that our "embrace your laziness" movement will be short-lived, and a strong work ethic will be in vogue once again -- by necessity.
Don't agree. "work ethic" is on life support.

JG
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 07:50 AM   #33
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

The work ethic has always been on life support - when I was young - us kids didn't know what hard work was - according to the old pharts.

Now that I are one - old phart that is - I'm constantly working on being grumpy in a good natured way - aka curmudgeonly.

Keeping track of lib/cons is tough. I remember when Saddam was our guy in Bagdad. My ancestors come to America from old dead Europe. In the 'old days' we Dems were for deficit spending, I think. Corporations had defined pensions.

History marches on - definitions change, the world adjusts.

When all elso fails - grumpy is good.

P.S. I wonder what 1840 Brit historians would have thought about their China trade theories Long wait - heh, heh, heh.

I need to get someone to buy Thomas Friedmans - The World is Flat for my birthday.

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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 10:22 AM   #34
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Originally Posted by unclemick2
The work ethic has always been on life support - when I was young - us kids didn't know what hard work was - according to the old pharts.

Now that I are one - old phart that is - I'm constantly working on being grumpy in a good natured way - aka curmudgeonly.

Keeping track of lib/cons is tough. I remember when Saddam was our guy in Bagdad. My ancestors come to America from old dead Europe.* In the 'old days' we Dems were for deficit spending, I think. Corporations had defined pensions.

History marches on - definitions change, the world adjusts.

When all elso fails - grumpy is good.

P.S. I wonder what 1840 Brit historians would have thought about their China trade theories Long wait - heh, heh, heh.

I need to get someone to buy Thomas Friedmans - The World is Flat for my birthday.

Hey unclemick.......did you know that it was not all that long ago
(relatively speaking) that the fed. government routinely ran a surplus?

JG
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 10:25 AM   #35
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Hey unclemick.......did you know that it was not all that long ago
(relatively speaking) that the fed. government routinely ran a surplus?
During Clinton's presidency, wasn't it? Yeah, that wasn't too long ago.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 10:27 AM   #36
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Originally Posted by BigMoneyJim
During Clinton's presidency, wasn't it? Yeah, that wasn't too long ago.
I give you that one, but I said "routinely" meaning year after year after year.

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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 10:40 AM   #37
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

[quoteDon't agree. "work ethic" is on life support.

JG ]Yeah. Galt proved that himself. Failed businessman living off of his working wife.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 10:44 AM   #38
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

JG, you said you wanted celebration for 5k posts. It appears this is now zing JG week.
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 12:20 PM   #39
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

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Originally Posted by ESRBob
I know most/all of us worked our tails off for 20 years or more to get to ER, but after that, we are looking a lot like Europeans, only self-funded.
I love the European lifestyle.

I just object to paying for everyone else's European lifestyle...
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results
Old 06-06-2005, 01:26 PM   #40
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Re: Europe, a giant Welfare State and it's results

As I said earlier, this article is a crock of crap. Neo-cons are on a roll, and it is because of the rampart stupidification of Americans. Most of my high school classmates in the 50s could have dismembered neo-con arguments in 10 minutes.

The whole thing makes me sick.

H
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