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experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 09:43 AM   #1
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experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

My sis needs a camcorder (which, for complicated reasons I won't go in to here) which is easy to use and EXTREMELY QUIET. I am looking at the Sony and JVC HDD recorders.. leaning towards the Sony which is more $ but has a viewfinder and reportedly better imaging indoors/low-light.

She's also like to get a DVD recorder to be able to free up her TiVo and burn DVDs from the stuff in the video camera. Basic model.. she doesn't need the "audio/video home theater" bells and whistles.

I have heard some DVD recorders don't handle widescreen stuff, though.. that might be a deal breaker since they do like widescreen movies that they get on cable.. (they have a regular TV, not a physically wide-screen one or HD one.) I have heard workarounds for this that include "save the file to your hard drive and change the extension, then re-burn a new DVD..." Uhhhh no thanks..

Are there ANY models that are as intutitive to use as a VCR (almost)? She doesn't have time for elaborate editing, effects, menus.. just being able to record and create track markers would do fine. I have seen some models that record to DVD+R in addition to DVD-R and DVD-RW.. any advantage to that?

I know the models are changing in continuation.. even brand recommendations that could steer me in the right direction... anyone? Thanks in advance!!
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 10:08 AM   #2
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
Are there ANY models that are as intutitive to use as a VCR (almost)? She doesn't have time for elaborate editing, effects, menus.. just being able to record and create track markers would do fine.
I have a 2+ year old Panasonic DVD recorder, which has proved to be a reliable workhorse, but its remote control layout and manual are, ahem, not for the technology-challenged or even easily annoyed. According to various DVD forums, it was a common problem with many DVD recorders at the time. I would check out user reviews at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=106 to see if any recent models are more user friendly.

Quote:
I have seen some models that record to DVD+R in addition to DVD-R and DVD-RW.. any advantage to that?
DVD+R is a newer standard for DVD disks, so you have more choices of DVD media, which is always a good thing. I always make sure to use top quality DVDs regardless of the standard. The price difference is pennies per DVD while their expected lifetime can vary from months to decades.

Quote:
I know the models are changing in continuation.. even brand recommendations that could steer me in the right direction... anyone? Thanks in advance!!
Toshiba was considered one of Panasonic's main competitors 2-3 years ago. I am not sure where things stand right now.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 10:29 AM   #3
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

I just bought a Liteon LVW-1107HC1 from Best buy on sale last weekend for $85 and have been using it to convert all my VHS family tapes to DVD. It is pretty straight forward to use and has an "easy guider" on screen menu. It's DVD + - compatible and has a digital camcorder front connection. Not bad for less than 90 bucks.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 10:44 AM   #4
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

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Originally Posted by larry
Not bad for less than 90 bucks.
True, lower end DVD recorders are getting very inexpensive. However, they typically lack a hard drive, so you will be recording straight to DVD. If your plan is to use your recorder to transfer movies from VHS to DVD or record things infrequently, then it should work fine for you. However, if you want to be able to program the recorder to record TV shows and movies over the next week or two and then dump them all to DVDs at the same time, then you would be better served by higher end models with a built-in hard drive. Of course, it will cost you more, probably $300-500, unless prices have dropped even more recently.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 11:19 AM   #5
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

Thanks for the link, Scrooge..

although stuff like this makes my eyes cross:
Quote:
there is a pseudo bitrate monitor with 1 to 10 bars indicating the level. The ES15 seems to manage its PQ with a lower indicated bitrate using subjective comparison. On a sub 4 hour FR test, I frequently saw 2-3 bars versus 4-5 with the ES20. I'm not ready to draw any conclusions, but the implication is that the new model is more efficient with its VBR recording.
Also the audio possibilities (that of course may not be compatible with each other) make me wonder.. just who are these mfr.s selling to
Quote:
His combination of DVD player and A/V receiver did not like the PCM audio. I reburned another DVD-R with DD 2.0 audio and everything worked fine.
Panasonic DVD recorders seem to be looking good.. may try to see if there are any that have a USB 2.0 interface since the HDD cameras output USB. Some DVD recorders have Firewire, but the HDD cameras don't have Firewire out. Sis has no real need for the hard drive since she already has the TiVo.

The AVS forum led me to this guide of recordable DVD media which looks worthwhile:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 11:28 AM   #6
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

I reported recently on the magnavox sub-$100 dvd recorder we bought. Its still doing its job just fine. I hear good things about the lite-on unit as well and respect their computer based cd/dvd products. We use the magnavox to dump stuff off of our tivo...mostly kid movies and kid shows that we use in the dvd player in the car for long trips. It burns from 5 minutes to 6 hours on one disk and frankly the four hour format quality is decent for regular plain old tv stuff. On the 2.5 hour bitrate I cant really see any difference between the original directv broadcasts and the resulting dvds. It basically works like a vcr...'record now for xx minutes' or 'do a recording at xx:xx for xxx minutes'. Each recording creates a separate 'chapter' on the dvd for skipping, so each show or recorded chunk can be jumped to directly. Only quibble with the magnavox is that the remote control really, really has to be pointed straight at the unit to work. Not a big deal though.

I looked at a bunch of the hard drive recorders. The good was capacity. The bad was almost everything else. I actually bought and tried a few and took them back. Many had poor picture quality, especially in low light. The video quality was usually grainy. They werent really very light weight. They often required specialized software to copy and convert the video format and use it with other tools to make dvds.

I finally got a solution...I was looking at the wrong products. I was trying to get a handheld digital camcorder that would occasionally take pictures, be fairly portable and easy to use, and be able to dump the results to my PC for editing and burning. It turned out that what I needed was a digital camera that took good movies, not a digital camcorder that also took pictures. The Canon SD-300 we bought is perfect. It takes BEAUTIFUL movies and nice pictures, and when you copy the resulting video files to the PC they're just raw AVI files, no special formats, no conversions, no funny software. Movie Maker and all the dvd software that came with the computer takes the files directly.

Only downside is 9 minutes of video per GB of secure digital flash. We have two 2GB chips and a 1GB chip. Unless you're wanting to set the thing up on a tripod or take it on an expedition and film a couple of hours of stuff, this might do the trick.

Plus its cheap, no moving parts, and you can 'buy' more 'film' almost anywhere. Flash is pretty cheap these days.

The camera will also work with a 4GB secure digital, but some computer readers wont read more than 1 or 2GB as the 4GB secure digital is not 'standard'. Some readers have updated drivers. Some manufacturers dont give a rats ass. My toshiba will write to a 1GB, but only reads a 2 or 4. Toshiba has no plans to resolve this.

I'll go look for my review on cameras and the dvd recorder and edit the links in.

Heres a thread on digital camcorders
http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...p?topic=4612.0
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 11:37 AM   #7
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

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Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
I looked at a bunch of the hard drive recorders.
Just to make sure we are on the same page re: "hard drive recorders". CFB seems to be talking about camcorders with hard drives while I was describing desktop DVD recorders* 8)
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 11:41 AM   #8
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

Yep, we're on the same page. She was asking about handheld camcorders with hard disk drives in them for storage and standalone dvd recorders for offloading tivo content. I think those are the two topics I addressed.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 11:49 AM   #9
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

Scrooge.. nope.. I believe CFB is talking about the DVD recorders that ALSO have a DVR.. recording onto hard disk (as being not worth it...).

And yes, in the first part of my question I was talking about camcorders with a hard drive (rather than miniDVD or tape).


Oops.. ok, my bad.

CFB, good point about the camera vs. the camcorder.. Don't go all nuts rounding up camera-related stuff, though, because she will definitely need multi-hour recording capability. (Thanks, though..) *In fact, besides the quiet operation, the draw of the HDD camcorders is that they can go 20-37 HOURS of recording before filling up their 30gig disks (in the lowest res mode). Best res you still get something like 7 hours before you have to do a dump.

To precise, one of her kids is autistic (or something related) and she needs to tape interactions with him to send to a psychologist. A whining, whirring camcorder would attract the kid's attention, as would fiddling with tape changes, etc. With the HDD she could set up a shot of the kid's play area, turn it on in the am, download at night and find the salient "events" to record and mail to the psychologist.

Image quality is not as important as ease of use. Even just to be able to play through to the TV/VCR onto a VHS tape would be enough. The DVD recorder was sort of a Phase II for this use, as well as for general home recording and "getting those d****d Dora videos off the TiVo."

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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 11:55 AM   #10
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

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Originally Posted by ladelfina
Scrooge.. nope.. I believe CFB is talking about the DVD recorders that ALSO have a DVR.. recording onto hard disk (as being not worth it...).
Ah, I see, I was probably partially confused since I have never owned cameras, camcoders or any of that other portable stuff. To me, a "DVD recorder" is that box sitting next to my TV*
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 12:02 PM   #11
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

Ahh...specifics definitely help on the recommendations.

Look very closely at the software that comes with the HDD cameras. While they record in mpeg2 and mpeg4, many of the ones I looked at required using the camera makers software to transfer the files, which then needed a conversion to something that people without the camera software could look at. Such conversions could take hours and hours unless you've got a pretty beefy computer. AND YOU DO NEED A NEW COMPUTER, RIGHT?

Suggestion, given the input so far...get a stationary camera, maybe one of those built into a stuffed bear or some other innocuous 'nanny cam', wire or wirelessly connect it to the input on the dvd recorder, and send the psych a dvd or two with notes as to what time spots the key bits are located at.

Last time I reviewed them, the HDD camcorders were expensive and a little delicate. Plus for this application, they LOOK like a camera and kids arent dumb...

There are also 'security camera vcrs' for sale at the usual warehouse clubs. Multiple small cameras, some wireless, and 2-4 outputs record to the same tape, with the tape lasting for up to 24 hours. If you're just looking for mediocre quality stuff with high capacity and lower cost, that might be an option. No camera moving, no frequent tape/disk changing.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 12:17 PM   #12
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

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.get a stationary camera, maybe one of those built into a stuffed bear or some other innocuous 'nanny cam', wire or wirelessly connect it to the input on the dvd recorder, and send the psych a dvd or two with notes as to what time spots the key bits are located at.
Hmm .. that was my husband's suggestion! I guess I thought the HDD camcorder could get some family use, since they don't have one of any kind right now. For as long as this observation is useful/necessary the recorder would have to be out of the way of the kids (who now have a pretty full command of everything in the TV zone, even at 3 and 5).

Wireless would be great -- not realizing that would be an option also kept me on the camcorder path.

OK off to look at wireless nanny-cams... thanks..!
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 12:41 PM   #13
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

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specifics definitely help on the recommendations.
sorry.. I was choking on my hairball of pre-conceived notions* ack ack

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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 12:45 PM   #14
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

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Originally Posted by ladelfina
sorry.. I was choking on my hairball of pre-conceived notions ack ack
Oh see, now you're just making fun of me...


The nanny cam people have become pretty creative. Some of them are built into clocks, smoke detectors, small appliances, clock radios, etc...and those things still do the function you would ordinarily expect on top of being a camera.

I see a four camera security system at costco that feeds to a 160GB hard disk recorder, motion and sound activated so no unnecessary recording, under $600.

One other tidbit...I once used an older series1 tivo for camera recording. Plugged a pair of security cameras into it that alternated between them every few seconds and set the tivo to do six manual four hour recordings. Found out it was the neighbor down the street who was driving over my lawn when he came home drunk at 2am every friday night and was weaving a bit... :

Only works with the 'standalone' units that have a video input, but perhaps your friends are in need for a tivo upgrade to the newer stuff and can use their old tivo for this purpose.

Once you take long recording needs out of the equation, perhaps having BOTH an inexpensive camera/camcorder and some type of recording nanny cam will provide better utilization and maybe even lower cost. Those HDD camcorders were $600-1000 last time I looked. My little camera fits in the palm of my hand and can be carried in my pants pocket...handy for those candid moments. Its ilk can be had for $200 or less on sale.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 01:48 PM   #15
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

A quick look at the surveillance/nanny cam world revealed 2 things:
1. Most surveillance cams are video only, we need audio.. (in theory this is for legal reasons?.. and, I suppose, cost)
2. Most integrated 'systems' want to hook up to a PC...* a WINDOWS PC, which as you can imagine is a non-starter. There was* one at http://www.wilife.com/About/AtHome.aspx but PC only. Kinda grainy and typical "convenience-store-holdup" quality, tho' color..

I saw this:
http://www.smarthome.com/76007.html
Really cheap with wireless to the monitor, which you would hook up directly to the recorder, but who knows whether the image is worth anything...

Will look into the Costco system... thanks!

Still have the HDD camcorder on the mental back burner 'cause even if the quality is not ultra top-notch, still light years ahead of the nanny cams I would hope. Cost not so much of an issue, really.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 02:12 PM   #16
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

I don't know how much truth there is to this, but I have heard that recording TiVo shows to DVD is different depending on what kind of TiVo you have. We have the DirecTV/TiVo combo and it doesn't have all the special features that the plain ol Tivo has.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 02:20 PM   #17
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

All tivo's can output to a dvd recorder, at least all the ones i'm aware of.

Directv tivo's dont have any video/audio inputs, so unlike the standalone units that do, you cant input other sources (than directv) INTO a directivo. You could hook up a vcr or dvd to a standalone tivo with inputs and with a few slick tricks copy your movie collection (or..err....rented videos) onto your tivo hard drive for easier watching later.

The directivo also has older software than non directv tivo's. Directv cut a very, very sweet deal with tivo...six bucks a month for the tivo service regardless of the number of units. Tivo gets $13 a month for the first one and 6-7 for each additional unit. Tivo wanted to renegotiate directv to raise the price, and directv balked...mostly because they decided their customers wouldnt pay that much. So tivo refused to supply any further upgrades to the software for the directv units unless directv pays more.

As a result, directv bought another company that makes a tivo-like device and now you can get a directv branded DVR thats not a tivo. And not as good. Yet.

Tivos massive business success (sarcasm) shows how well their $13+6 per unit pricing strategy plays in the market.

Directivo's cant use a lot of newer tivo features, like tivotogo or watching a show from one tivo on another across your home network, or any networking features at all. At least without some considerable hacking...
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 02:50 PM   #18
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

This could be a solution to both issues:

1. Get a run-of-the-mill camcorder.* It's not going to make noise, because your not going to use the videotape.* $10 at a garage sale. Make sure the camera doesn't automatically shut off after a few minutes.

2. Get a Panasonic E85H or equivalent.* Its a DVR with the capability to record up to 213 hours of lower resolution audio/video or 50 hours high res.* These cost about $500 (YMMV) and are reviewed at epinions.com.

Turn on the camera and feed the output to the DVR.* Don't press record.* You can periodically edit and transfer the video to a DVD.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 02:56 PM   #19
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

CFB, thanks for explaining it to me!

Quote:
Directv cut a very, very sweet deal with tivo...six bucks a month for the tivo service regardless of the number of units.
We still pay per TiVo. We have 3 TiVo units (don't ask) and 2 of them are DirecTV branded.
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?
Old 07-24-2006, 08:29 PM   #20
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Re: experience with HDD camcorders? DVD recorders?

ooo interesting solution, Trombone Al!!!!!

Thinking outside the box in more ways than one!

Just talked with her today and I think she is going to try the run-of-the-mill camcorder first anyway and see how it goes.
Since the kid tunes her out he may well tune out the camera, but you never know because he can react oddly to different environmental factors.

At first she told me she had to send in tape of him 'interacting'... now it turns out there are special exercizes that this psychologist want her to play out with him, so the scope of the recording is now more limited than she led me to believe. Yep, specs are important!

Since I'm trying to help her long-distance of course I throw myself into no-holds-barred, spare-no-expense, super problem-solving mode. Overcompensation. Guilt.

The no-tape camcorder is an excellent idea, and I imagine you could hook it up to a $200 DVD recorder just as well as to a DVR hard disk.. Thanks again everybody, for all your tips!!
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