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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 02:23 PM   #21
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 02:26 PM   #22
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Does anybody remember the Cold War? Hey, after coming on on top after that, the cleaning up we are having to do now to repair some of the "gotta hold our nose and do this" things we did then is, relatively, a bargain.

I think the Shah, though certainly guilty of abuses, comes out looking pretty good compared to much else in the region--including the regime that followed.

Of course, maybe if we hadn't backed him, Iran would be a pluralistic democracy right now--like Switzerland, but with oil and sand. Right.
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 04:02 PM   #23
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by bpp
Ok, I'm stupid, but fundamentally, doesn't any country, even Iran, have the right to develop nuclear power if it wants?* Doesn't it even have the right to develop nuclear weapons if it wants?

Yeah, if they use them, their enemies have the right to turn around and turn them into glass, but...* Aren't they, in principle, in the right for the time being?

Bpp, under the influence of shochu, but seriously wondering.
OK Bpp, we will stipulate that part of your statement is correct... you are stupid (JUST KIDDING!!!)

But, to your answer... most countries have signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation treaty (looks spelled wrong...)... this treaty is the basis for not having nuclear power distributed to countries that do not have it already...

I am not sure if Iran signed the dotted line on this... maybe someone can look it up...

The second reason is some of the UN 'stuff'... not sure what and where.. but most countries ignore these things also as we do not want a world government... I know this is so general to be worthless, but that is the reasoning behind the stance of the opposition..

And of course, the more countries that have the bombs, the more likely someone will use one... which means someone else etc. etc...
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 04:11 PM   #24
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic23
What strikes me in the Hersh article is the sources.
A high ranking Official
A civilian contractor with contact in the Pentagon
A friend of a friend that knows someone who use to baby sit for the Sec of Def. and so on.
Yeah, it would have been nice if those officials would agree to go on the record with their statements, but it's not surprising that they would insist on remaining anonymous. After the Seymour Hersch article appeared in the New Yorker, the Washington Post ran a related article and at least put some names alongside most of their quotes:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...801082_pf.html

I can't believe we're even discussing pre-emptive nuclear war. But then, I didn't expect the USA to suspend the Geneva Conventions, the 4th amendment, lie about starting a war, etc. etc.

Election season in 2008 will certainly be interesting.

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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 04:16 PM   #25
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by sc

I can't believe we're even discussing pre-emptive nuclear war.* But then, I didn't expect the USA to suspend the Geneva Conventions, the 4th amendment, lie about starting a war, etc. etc.

Election season in 2008 will certainly be interesting.

SC
Crap, I just hope we get to the '06 elections and get a democratic house before the monkeys in charge start a war with Iran. The possibility of impeachment *might* keep these clowns in check. It is unfortunate that the curent congress apparently would not impeach if Bush shot a person dead and scrwed the corpse on the Speaker f the House's desk while Cheney helped.
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 04:21 PM   #26
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Geneva Convention: We are in compliance. There's a meaningful distinction between a lawful combatant and an unlawful combatant--it's not just a semantic nicety. Where US personnel have been guilty of abuses (against US policy) I'm fairly sure they've been punished.

I think the last president who lied about starting a war was Johnson.

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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 04:27 PM   #27
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

If a nuclear bomb goes off anywhere in the world all bets are off.

We can kiss our ER's goodbye.
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Old 04-12-2006, 04:31 PM   #28
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Crap, I just hope we get to the '06 elections and get a democratic house before the monkeys in charge start a war with Iran.
I was hoping for at least an end to the regimes in Iran and Saudi Arabia before Bush leaves office, with any of Egypt, Syria, France, etc. as a bonus, but hey -- to each his own
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 04:38 PM   #29
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Crap, I just hope we get to the '06 elections and get a democratic house before the monkeys in charge start a war with Iran.
That's why we're likely to see it before the election... bombing makes for good TV, gets people all riled up to support their leader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Dood
I was hoping for at least an end to the regimes in Iran and Saudi Arabia before Bush leaves office, with any of Egypt, Syria, France, etc. as a bonus, but hey -- to each his own
As far as I know, you don't have to be a US citizen to join the military, and they could use the help...

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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 04:48 PM   #30
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
Geneva Convention: We are in compliance. There's a meaningful distinction between a lawful combatant and an unlawful combatant--it's not just a semantic nicety.
Is that you, John Yoo?
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 05:02 PM   #31
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by sc
As far as I know, you don't have to be a US citizen to join the military, and they could use the help...
Hey, I am a US citizen! I also pay some US taxes, but if anyone has an address where I can make a direct donation to the US military... (which I think would be a more useful contribution than anything I could do in a uniform, anyway, but i am signed up for the pre-draft thingy, that applies no matter where you are.)
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 05:04 PM   #32
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
I think the last president who lied about starting a war was Johnson.
The majority of those on the board are too young to remember that particular event, but I'll bet they remember the last president who lied about not using his Johnson.

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Old 04-12-2006, 05:16 PM   #33
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
I think theres an aspect of the policy that involves keeping the nukes away from people who have previously taken our citizens hostage and scream "death to america" and "death to israel" a lot.
There you go CFB, trying to be rational.

Iran signed the nonproliferation treaty. They willingly gave up their right to develop nuclear technology for their benefits in that treaty.

What this will show is whether the UN has become so worthless that they can't/won't do something meaningful. If nothing gets done after Iran's announcements, the UN needs to go away.

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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 05:24 PM   #34
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Dood
Hey, I am a US citizen!
Sorry - thought you were Canadian for some reason...
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:40 PM   #35
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Hm, not sure what gave you that impression.

Actually I'm both, FWIW. But one's better than the other.
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 08:44 PM   #36
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Texas Proud:
Quote:
But, to your answer... most countries have signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation treaty (looks spelled wrong...)... this treaty is the basis for not having nuclear power distributed to countries that do not have it already...
2B:
Quote:
Iran signed the nonproliferation treaty. They willingly gave up their right to develop nuclear technology for their benefits in that treaty.
I found the text of the treaty. It is pretty short.

http://disarmament2.un.org/wmd/npt/npttext.html

Regarding nuclear power:
Quote:
Article IV

1. Nothing in this Treaty shall be interpreted as affecting the inalienable right of all the Parties to the Treaty to develop research, production and use of nuclear energy for peaceful purposes without discrimination and in conformity with Articles I and II of this Treaty.
Iran seems to be well within its treaty rights so far.

And if one wants to develop nuclear weapons:
Quote:
Article X

1. Each Party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country. It shall give notice of such withdrawal to all other Parties to the Treaty and to the United Nations Security Council three months in advance. Such notice shall include a statement of the extraordinary events it regards as having jeopardized its supreme interests.
So it's pretty much a voluntary thing. A country can bail at any time by giving notice and some kind of justification (most any country can cite some kind of reason, I imagine.) For that matter, there don't seem to be any provisions for any kind of sanctions if a country decides to go ahead and develop nuclear weapons even without going through the formalities above.

All in all, I don't see how the treaty provides a justification for other countries to be able to a dang thing about it if Iran or any other signatory decides to develop nuclear weapons.

So if this treaty gets used as an excuse for another war, I am going to be mighty pissed off. (Which on top of being stupid, might make me a real danger to myself.)

Bpp
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 09:20 PM   #37
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

- Iran admitted to having a nuclear weapons program even though it was proscribed by the NPT. They admitted it after it was discovered and publicized. Then they said they needed a nuclear power program.

- I think the NPT is largely irrelevant in this case: it is meant to help slow the spread of nukes by providing a regime for monitoring nuclear technologies (including enrichment) and to provide a mechanism for identifying those who are cheating. Enforcement is left up to the international community. The IAEA is no longer monitoring the Iranian enrichment program, so the main benefit of the treaty is gone.

- If it comes down to "pressuring" Iran, we may have to decide whether sanctions , with their record of poor results and misery for the affected nation, are really more humane than other tools.

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Old 04-12-2006, 09:31 PM   #38
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo!
The majority of those on the board are too young to remember that particular event
Hey, my lottery number was "25"*
Class of "69"
2S deferment expired spring, '69.* Draft notice arrived summer '69

Quote:
but I'll bet they remember the last president who lied about not using his Johnson.
Damn....that's a good one!* This thread was getting depressing until I came across this......* Thanks.
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 09:40 PM   #39
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo!
The majority of those on the board are too young to remember that particular event, but I'll bet they remember the last president who lied about not using his Johnson.
Hey, that was good! I'm so glad I didn't say "LBJ"
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check
Old 04-12-2006, 11:25 PM   #40
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Re: Fan lined up?check.Excrement ready to hit? check

Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo!
The majority of those on the board are too young to remember that particular event,
It was already in high school history textbooks by the 70's, so no problem.

Lyndon BJ (you're welcome) wasn't the first to lie about reasons to go to war, either. Besides Tonkin Gulf, Remember the Maine. The Lusitania. Even the Boston Massacre was blown out of proportion. And then there are those dark rumors about Pearl Harbor... and the suggestions that have been made that the US secretly encouraged Hussein to invade Kuwait in order to provide an excuse to go to war against him.

I guess expecting anything better is just naive (or stupid), but jeeze it gets tiresome being hit with the same stupid-stick over and over again.

Bpp
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