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Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-02-2006, 04:07 PM   #1
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Fish: Wild or Farm?

Another pinot voter here. But only the wild salmon. The farm raised tastes like paste.

As long as you're not drinking chardonnay with filet mignon :P ;P
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Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-02-2006, 06:20 PM   #2
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Fish: Wild or Farm?

I know this is something you feel strongly about, but...

ALL of the farm raised salmon I've eaten in the last ten years sucked. On two coasts. From dozens of different markets in many different metropolitan areas.

I thought I'd just lost my taste for it, as I used to like salmon but over the last ten years I just wasnt enjoying it. Always bought the farm raised. Wouldnt have even bought it but my wife loves salmon.

Went to a friends house for a dinner and she served wild salmon. It was terrific. We bought only the wild after that, and every piece was great.

Tried one more piece of the farm raised, and it sucked. We threw it out. The wife issued an edict that if we couldnt find the wild, we wouldnt bother.
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Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-02-2006, 07:02 PM   #3
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Fish: Wild or Farm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Farm raised Salmon can be as tasty as wild. The ones you ate were either fed a bad diet or were not fresh. We have plenty of excellent farm raised Salmon shipped fresh daily to Minneapolis.

I have eaten 4 species wild of Pacific Salmon on the banks of more than 40 rivers in Alaska, and I can tell you than a properly raised fresh Farm Salmon would be impossible to tell apart from the Wild Fish. I have also eaten Farm raised Atlantic Salmon and Fresh Atlantic Salmon from Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec and Ireland also. If a wild Salmon is not eaten in the first few days, it will taste as bad as farm raised salmon that has spoiled. A Fresh Salmon should not smell fishy at all. Should smell slightly sweet.
When it comes to fish, I know what I'm talkin about TH. I even held a Fly Rod World record for Coho Salmon for 5 years in the 1980's.

The Salmon out of Lake Michigan however are all terrible. Their diet is alewives. They spawn naturally so they are considered wild fish - But they are all Bad!

just out of curiousity, which of the 5 species of Pacific salmon did you decline to eat?

as for your contention that "properly raised fresh Farm Salmon would be impossible to tell apart from the Wild Fish", this may be true about the taste, but if you want to tell the difference, have them tested for PCBs. Because of the feed they are given, they concentrate a lot more toxins than fresh fish. This is why the official recommendations say not to eat too many farmed fish, but don't have this caveat on the fresh ones. Note that slaughterhouse waste is used to make the pellets and therefore you are probably getting hormones and other goodies when you eat the darned things.

There is also the environmental issues around farmed salmon. They are usually Atlantic salmon (not really a true salmon-more akin to a steelhead). When they raise them, the damn buggers sometimes jump the net pens. They are very aggressive and will move on on native salmon spawning grounds, threatening the viability of the wild runs. This is why there is a moratorium on farming salmon in Alaska, but unfortunately not in BC and the fish don't understand boundaries. The fact that they are crowded in net pens makes them breeding ground for fungi, which then also get spread to the wild stock.

Finally, ask yourself--would you rather support Tyson foods, or a small business commercial fisherman.

to quote a popular bumper sticker in Alaska

SAY NO TO DRUGS--DON'T EAT FARMED FISH
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Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-03-2006, 01:43 AM   #4
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Fish: Wild or Farm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Boy, have you been brainwashed by commercial fishing industry! They are not going to go down without a fight. expect to hear all sorts of nasty things about farm raised Salmon. They have Hundreds of thousands of dollars in boats and gear, with not much future to do anything else. It's gonna get nasty!

I'd rather support a small fish farmer than anyone killing wild animals.

If you had to get your Beef, Chicken and Pork from only wild stock - Do you really think we'd have any wild animals left?

Yes, there are problems with Fish Farming as there have been with other types of farming. But Fish Farming is the future as 90% of the fish in the Oceans are Gone!
1. brainwashed by the fishing industry. right. they probably set EPA criteria.

check out http://www.albany.edu/ihe/salmonstudy/pressrelease.html
http://www.ewg.org/reports/farmedPCBs/es.php
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/co...almon_Safe.asp

I suppose these are all just mouthpieces of the commercial fishing industry? Who do you suppose has more teeth--Tyson foods or the battered fishing industry?

The bottom line is that farmed salmon have significantly more contaminants. The question is unsettled what the long-term health risks are. But what the hell--take a gamble....it's only your health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat

If you know anything about Pacific Salmon, you know the species I have not eaten.

To set you straight about a few things which you don't know what you are talking about.

The Atlantic Salmon is a True Salmon - The Steelhead is a Sea Run Rainbow trout which is in the same family as the Pacific Salmon. Atlantic Salmon and Brown Trout are in the same family. Completely Different families and scientific names!
2. I like to think I know a thing or two about Pacific Salmon, having sport-fished, commercial fished, and worked several seasons for Alaska Fish and Game. It seems that since I don't agree with you, I must not know anything. One thing I don't know is if the "species to be shunned" in your book is chums or pinks. Personally, I prefer chums to pinks, but many feel the other way. But either one is tasty enough if fresh and prepared properly. (full disclosure--I have not had any fisheries-related job for 14 years, nor have any financial stake in any of this). That being said, I'd rather eat a King, Sockeye or Coho, but basically, the "desirability" seems to be directly proportional to their fat content.

But tell me, then why is atlantic salmon "salmo salar" when all the pacific salmon genus are "Oncorhynchus"? And why do atlantic salmon not die after they spawn, but swim back to the ocean more like a seagoing trout? I will grant you that steelhead is also an Oncorhynchus, so my statement about atlantic salmon being related to them was not accurate.

check out http://wdfw.wa.gov/outreach/fishing/t&sid.pdf

kind of interesting that they classify the Atlantic salmon in with the trout, not with the salmon, don't you think? Although rainbows, cuts, and goldens have been reclassified as salmon species. It seems there is not so much difference between salmon and trout as many believe. I guess "it's just semantics." I will admit to my prior statement about Atlantic salmon not being "true salmon" was inaccurate and now believe that the term "true salmon" is probably meaningless.

3. as for your implied contention that it is somehow more ecological or moral or something to eat farmed fish than it is to "kill wild animals" (isn't that what sport fisherman do? ) you seem to have conveniently ignored a lot of enviromental and food-chain issues which I alluded to in my previous post. If you think that increasing salmon farming is going to save wild salmon stocks, then I suggest that you might need to think about this a bit more. The problem at this point in time is loss of habitat, not overfishing. Escaped Atlantic farmed salmon on the pacific coast are a major threat to wild runs. It's certainly possible for the industry to change the way they do things, but of course they resist. Just as it's possible to manage a wild fishery or a coastal development plan in a manner that doesn't harm the stocks, although again, there is always political pressure due to greed.

4. finally, and here we are definitely in the realm of pure opinion, there is a sizable body of gourmet literature out there that will diss farmed fish as not being as firm or flavourful. For example, " True salmon connoisseurs prefer wild salmon to farm-raised because of its firmer flesh and superior flavor." in http://allrecipes.com/advice/coll/al...cles/290P1.asp

there are so many variables in cooking, treating the fish etc. that this is an argument that can never be won. The big advantage farmed fish have is the ability to get them to market more quickly and for them to be handled in a consistent way.

C-T, I have no beef (whether slaughtehouse or range-fed ) with you. In fact, I agree with your posts more often than not. But just because we disagree on this issue does not mean that I "do not know what I am talking about." And while it is probably true that 90% of the fish in the ocean are gone, IMO that doesn't justify maintaining practices that endanger the 10% that are left.

I actually believe it is probably healthier to eat some farmed salmon than no fish at all due to the beneficial nature of the omega oils. I just think people need to realize that they are intaking more toxins when they choose this route and should restrict it to a couple servings per month (if not pregnant) per the best information currently available.
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-03-2006, 03:56 AM   #5
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

the cheapest way to get wild salmon is in those little bumble bee cans
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-03-2006, 04:13 AM   #6
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

When living in the northwest I ate wild salmon regularly (King and Sockeye). Having come from the east it was like I'd never had salmon before. Now I only have access to farm raised and it it's no match. The salmon we have access to at costco is bland and color is dyed. Where can one get good farm raised salmon?
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Old 06-03-2006, 07:52 AM   #7
 
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

Quote:
I will grant you that steelhead is also an Oncorhynchus, so my statement about atlantic salmon being related to them was not accurate.
I knew you didn't what what you were talking about when you made this statement. That is what I said. It's good we agree.

Quote:
SAY NO TO DRUGS--DON'T EAT FARMED FISH
If you think the commercial fishing industry is concerned with your health and well being by putting out these bumper stickers, then we are done with this discussion. When you start quoting the bumper stickers, it shows me you are 'a believer'.

My original statement was that a farm raised salmon would taste as good as a wild Salmon if they were of the same species and just as fresh still holds. And I'm glad you agree with that. When someone starts talking about something that I have a very deep understanding of it, I have to call them on it.

As far as PCBS, I'm going out on a limb here but I believe that the piece of balony that you consume is far more loaded with drugs than a piece of farm salmon. If there was a 'wild balony industry' catching wild balony, they would be telling you how bad processed balony was for you.
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Old 06-03-2006, 08:14 AM   #8
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

farm bred = sea lice
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-03-2006, 08:36 AM   #9
 
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cube_rat
farm bred = sea lice
Not sure what your statement means, but here is a picture of Wild Silver Salmon I caught Fresh from the Ocean, with Sea-Lice still attahed. I've never eaten Sea-Lice as they attach themselves to the outside of the fish. I usually try to eat the flesh inside the skin. Sea-Lice are very desireable to find on a Wild Fish becuse it means they are very fresh. The lice drop off when the Salmon enters Fresh Water to spawn.

[img width=750 height=500]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Cutthroat-trout/Fishing/SeaLice.jpg[/img]
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Old 06-03-2006, 09:09 AM   #10
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

Is "Costco" a species of salmon? I like their frozen bags 'o salmon filets pretty well.

Cb
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-03-2006, 09:12 AM   #11
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cb
Is "Costco" a species of salmon?* I like their frozen bags 'o salmon filets pretty well.
I've been thinking the same-- I'll eat just about any fish if it's not moving!

It's time for these guys to do some blindfolded taste-testing...
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Old 06-03-2006, 09:36 AM   #12
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

I was born and raised in the State of Washington.

To this day - I avoid Salmon ---- and Apples.

heh heh heh heh heh
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-03-2006, 09:43 AM   #13
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
This is anecdotal evidence at best. TH - You have knowledge in a lot of areas. Salmon is mine.
No disagreement on that. But if every piece of 'farm raised' I buy tastes like paste and every piece of 'wild' salmon I buy tastes great, and thats a pattern thats persisted on both coasts across a number of stores in a number of areas...isnt the anecdote (at least for me) pretty dang good?

And like I said, this isnt that I expected the farm raised to taste bad, I just inadvertently stopped eating the wild because the farm raised was always cheaper and became more available and thought I'd just lost my taste for it because it stunk. Then when faced with my first wild salmon in 10 years, loved it. The "blindfold" in the taste test was simply not knowing.

Quote:
I know what I'm talking about. I am guessing you don't even know the species of Salmon you ate. Which makes a huge difference.
You're absolutely right. I bought "what the stores are selling" species. There are no fru-fru fish stores near here. We get a sams club, a costco, a bel-air, a raleys, an albertsons and a winco. I eat their species. Their farm raised species suck. The wild salmon tastes great. Costco's wild salmon is one of the best i've tasted. Their farm raised tastes like paste.

So in a nutshell, you might be completely right...some species of farm raised fish might taste terrific. But if I cant get them or readily identify them, whats the difference?

By the way, the exact same thing happened to me with trout. I used to love trout, but everything I got 10-15+ years ago was probably wild. Then I lost interest in it. Last year one of my neighbors went fishin up in the sierras up near jarheads neck of the woods and brought back a couple of coolers full of huge trout, and he kicked me a couple. Put them on the grill. Far more fat than the supermarket stuff. Absolutely one of the best things i've eaten in years. Grabbed some at Bel-Air the next week...they stunk.

So two for two for fish consumption...back in the day when farm raised was rare I liked a lot of fish...then when I inadvertently started eating farm raised, I lost interest. When presented with quality wild salmon and trout, I became a fan again.

Guess i'll have to take up fishing, or do some more favors for my neighbors...
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-03-2006, 10:10 AM   #14
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
I knew you didn't what what you were talking about when you made this statement. That is what I said. It's good we agree.

If think the commercial fishing industry is concerned with your health and well being by putting out these bumper stickers, then we are done with this discussion. When you start quoting the bumper stickers, it shows me you are 'a believer'.
It is true that I was incorrect about the taxonomy. But apparantly I am not alone in the belief that Atlantic salmon have troutlike characteristics (see link I provided previously to WA state). I didn't realize that the bumper sticker would have such a strong effect--I thought it was humourous, it does not form the basis of my opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
My original statement was that a farm raised salmon would taste as good as a wild Salmon if they were of the same species and just as fresh still holds. And I'm glad you agree with that. When someone starts talking about something that I have a very deep understanding of it, I have to call them on it.
There seems to be a belief among most people that wild salmon, all other things being equal, will have firmer meat. Probably due to muscle tone or whatever. But like I said, farm-raised salmon if handled and treated properly, can taste great. All those nasty toxins don't spoil the flavour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
As far as PCBS, I'm going out on a limb here but I believe that the piece of balony that you consume is far more loaded with drugs than a piece of farm salmon. If there was a 'wild balony industry' catching wild balony, they would be telling you how bad processed balony was for you.
well, are we comparing baloney to salmon, or just flinging baloney at each other

If you check out some of the links, you will see that, at least according to some studies, farmed salmon are significantly higher in some toxins than beef, and way higher than fresh salmon. I don't really want to get into a position of defending the beef and pork industry even though I seem to do my share to support them.

Honestly, in my point of view, the biggest problem with wild salmon is the environmental problems due to the way they are farmed. The toxin issue, if sufficiently publicized, could probably be solved by changing the composition of their feed. If, as Aldous Huxley said, "fish are vegetables within the meaning of the act" then it may not constitute cruelty to raise them as they are in pens etc. This would be another slippery matter of opinion. But the darned pens should be required to be set up in a way to not allow escapees, and the feed should be cleaned up somehow.

good fishing
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-03-2006, 10:19 AM   #15
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
. . . But only the wild salmon.* The farm raised tastes like paste.

. . .
Yeah, I feel the same way about beef. If I can't stalk it and hunt it myself, I at least try to buy commercially hunted wild beef. The farm stuff tastes like paste.

Anyone for wild boar?
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?
Old 06-03-2006, 10:25 AM   #16
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

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Anyone for wild boar?
I think we've got a domesticated one (at least) in our midst...

So...the male prostitutes arent enough...you need a wild animal too?
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Old 06-03-2006, 10:36 AM   #17
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

Ugh, my FIL likes to go bow hunting, brought back a wild boar one time. There isn't enough ketsup in the world.....even gamier than the deer my grandfather in law caught (with a bow-the one I couldn't even draw back-remember, all my in laws can kick my butt).

I've caught 3 fish in my life, one from a pond (unkown), one small fish I threw back into the ocean, promptly followed by a stingray. He flew right out of the water onto my lap and crapped all over the boat. I nearly did the same. :P

Having said that, I am no expert, but I just don't get fish. I've been to the most expensive fish houses in the area (and San Diego tries to pretend it has good ones) and ordered the finest fish on the menu, and while it's certainly edible, it just, well, seeme kind of boring, to little flavor. Now lox on my bagels is another thing.
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Old 06-03-2006, 10:51 AM   #18
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

on a tangential note, did anyone see Politically Correct a couple weeks ago?

Apparantly, when George Bush was in Germany he was asked what the best day of the presidency was. His response was the day he caught the 7 lb. 3 ounce perch.

Aside from the fact that he caught it in a man-made stocked pond on his own ranch, Bill Maher claimed that the world record perch (don't remember which variety they were discussing) was a bit over 4 lbs.

So Maher's point was--let's not impeach him for steamrolling the bill of rights, lying about WMD, all the other "high crimes and misdemeanors." Let's give them some of their own medicine. Let's impeach him for his fish story.

Let's impeach him for lying about the size of the fish he caught.

Why not? Makes about the same amount of sense as impeachment for lying about a bj.

got a couple chuckles out of me

disclaimer: I have no knowledge nor opinion on whether or not a 7 pound perch really was a lie or not. Just thought the sentiment was funny.
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Old 06-03-2006, 12:18 PM   #19
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
Not sure what your statement means, but here is a picture of Wild Silver Salmon I caught Fresh from the Ocean, with Sea-Lice still attahed. I've never eaten Sea-Lice as they attach themselves to the outside of the fish. I usually try to eat the flesh inside the skin. Sea-Lice are very desireable to find on a Wild Fish becuse it means they are very fresh. The lice drop off when the Salmon enters Fresh Water to spawn.

[img width=750 height=500]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Cutthroat-trout/Fishing/SeaLice.jpg[/img]
CT - This information in enlightening. I was under the impression that salmon, especially farm bred, are infested with sea lice.
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Old 06-03-2006, 01:15 PM   #20
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Re: Fish: Wild or Farm?

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Originally Posted by cube_rat
CT - This information in enlightening. I was under the impression that salmon, especially farm bred, are infested with sea lice.
there's nothing incompatible here. Wild fish have sea lice when caught. It wouldn't surprise me (although I don't know it for certain) if farmed fish had more of them, since they are restrained in pens.

I don't think presence or absence of sea lice, in and of itself, is an issue. But it is true that they will drop off if the fish is not fresh.
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